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-- Total Dog (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=334592)

Scott what I was saying Grand Hunting Champion is a proven rabbit dog is it not? Don't see were the coonhound comparison comes into effect? If you have a Grand Hunting Champion dog , why should you have to run the dog the day of the hunt, to prove it's a rabbit dog? You should be able to show a Grand Champion Hunting dog at anytime, without hunting it the day of the hunt and still get your points. Is that not the same point you where trying making at first?

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Gorman's Creek Kennels
The Home of GRHBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Red Chief
2009 Ohio State Hunt Grand Cast winner at age 9. 2007 NHBA Days Grand Champion Winner and Top Dog of the Hunt Winner, the only dog out of 80 to circle a rabbit that day. 2003 Ohio State UKC and NKC Best in show Winner, Nationals and Eliminator Best Senior Male. National Cast Winner 8 years in a row.
HBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Blue Ribbon Best in Show Winner of the 1st McVay
2002 Memorial Hunt, Champion of Champions Eliminator Hunt. National Cast winner 3 years in a row.
GRHBCH Gorman's Big Brassy
HBCH CH Gorman's Creek Jewel
CH Gorman's Princess Leia

"The more you think you know, the less you really know".

A well thought out program would not completely exclude the show dogs. I agree with Mitch"s statement: "You can have success with these lines when bred to hunting lines that has been proven obviously with the roots our kennel and many others,but that does not always happen."

The show blood in the ancestry of Michael includes extreme show dogs, many of which were also solid rabbit dogs. Our dogs have both excellent hunt and the ability to pass on solid structure. Not my opinion but rather proven Facts! Used wisely some of the so called "show dogs" will have a very positive influence on the breed. It is also beneficial for the hunt comunity to see examples of excellent structured hounds with correct breed type.

How to show case TRUE TOTAL DOGS while also recognizing the excellent show dogs? Hmmmm!!! That needs some thought and input!

Regardless! A dog that has proven itself in the field by earning a hunt title should not be excluded from Total Dog competition. IMO

quote:

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Originally posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL

A well thought out program would not completely exclude the show dogs

Regardless! A dog that has proven itself in the field by earning a hunt title should not be excluded from Total Dog competition. IMO

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From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be

Jamey, I was NOT disagreeing with your post it was the one before you that said "Show dogs shouldn't HAVE TO HUNT"...... Thats where the coonhound comparisin came in.The only "crazy thing" you said was a GRHBCH should automatically be qualified for the world, Do you realize how much this would hurt the entries at the WQE's ? And how big the World hunt would Be? I've got 3 GRHBCH's here and would put all 3(old or not) in if they got a "FREE RIDE".They sure couldn't move the world around anymore because very few clubs could handle that. Now back to the subject, I DO NOT agree that a dog that minus's out should not show, As a rule I run tight mouth dogs not as tight as some but usually if they bark - the rabbit is up. And I hate a boo hoo dog that never shuts up but why punish that dog twice, It's already a slap in the face to minus out so why shouldn't they get to show? Atleast that dog is trying to do what its bred to do RUN RABBITS, I've seen very few "FOO FOO" dogs that will even bark enough to take a minus. I would love to see a point system like or simaler to the one I posted earlier put into effect to promote the dog that can win in the hunt AND on the bench. To me that would be a TOTAL DOG plus it would cut way back on the dogs that "just get by" for 2 hrs, sure they might win a few shows but if I can place in the hunt AND win the show....... BAM I GOT MORE POINTS then that dog.

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Home of the FIRST EVER 2008 NATIONAL JR STATE RACE RUNNOFF CHAMPION , 2009 Runner up State Race points winnerGRCH HBCH 'PR' GOTTA GO SEE YA BYE
2011 NATIONAL GRAND SHOW CHAMPION, 2nd Place HBCH
2009 overall NHBA Show winner 2009 National Show Champion winner 2010 OHIO STATE Show winner PCH NGRCH GRHBCH GRCH Gotta Go I Go (Iggy) Now owned by Eric Ballanger
Coming soon
HBCH Gotta Go Coal'd as Ice 2011 Nationals cast winner
Gotta Go Coal Haulin Man
2011 Nationals Best Male Puppy Best Male of Show AND Best of Winners also 2011 Nationals cast winner CH Gotta Go It's All Business
Gotta Go Sassafrass 2012 PP NATIONAL OVERALL SHOW WINNER @ 7months

Good Post Scott and I LIKE your Point System.
You need to Follow thru With it. Bring it up With Jed and the Powers that Be. I would Support it as I am Sure others would if they Would Stop and think about it...

quote:

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Lets say you have 14 HBCHs and your dog wins its cast and gets 2 place in HBCH, hes basically beaten 12 other dogs then you go on a win best of breed against 8 dogs in the show, dog gets 7 total dog points, now give a half a point for each dog beaten in the feild 6 points, this would give you a total of 13 TOTAL DOG points for that day. Break the point system down like the incentive fund points 1st = 1 point per dog, 2nd = 1/2 point per dog, 3rd = 1/3 point per dog , 4th = 1/4 point per dog. I think a system like this would definately increase the show entries and would greatly increase the prestige of the TOTAL DOG WINNER. JMHO

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From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be

Scott, I am not disagreeing with your point system.

Mitch, You and I have been headed in the same direction and with the same goals. We agree what kind of dogs we want and what we want to produce. Its sounds like several others agree.

JMO this is UKC hunting beagle program, so if a dog can't meet the critera of hunting 2 hours with out commiting enough faults to be scratched,
why promote it on the bench that day. Next week different conditions or cast and it may be barn burners, then it has earned the right to be recognized as a hunting beagle.
As far as needing cold nosed, line running dogs to keep a track going or run a rabbitt I will not comment, best left unsaid. This is not brace.
JMO if a dog opens it should be able to jump,run produce and circle that rabbit alone with no help. Does that mean we are gonna have empty benches? Maybe, maybe we should change the name to beagle program and not HUNTING beagle. I draw a couple guys around here on a regular basis that have show dogs, and those dogs will hunt.

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Winners train,Loosers complain.

Ok....lol

__________________
Gorman's Creek Kennels
The Home of GRHBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Red Chief
2009 Ohio State Hunt Grand Cast winner at age 9. 2007 NHBA Days Grand Champion Winner and Top Dog of the Hunt Winner, the only dog out of 80 to circle a rabbit that day. 2003 Ohio State UKC and NKC Best in show Winner, Nationals and Eliminator Best Senior Male. National Cast Winner 8 years in a row.
HBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Blue Ribbon Best in Show Winner of the 1st McVay
2002 Memorial Hunt, Champion of Champions Eliminator Hunt. National Cast winner 3 years in a row.
GRHBCH Gorman's Big Brassy
HBCH CH Gorman's Creek Jewel
CH Gorman's Princess Leia

"The more you think you know, the less you really know".

Here is a brainstorm that might turn out to be just a drizzle but consider this...

Show points AND total dog points. Each dog would have two seperate scores. Total dog points are show points (Best of Breed winner gets 1 point for every dog defeated) plus state race points. Only two stipulations to this: 1) Top 10 total dogs must have earned a hunt title and show title by the end of the calendar year. 2) Because it is a HUNTING Beagle program you may also consider show points can only equal hunt points but hunt points can double show points. Example: 100 show points and 20 state race points would give the dog 40 total dog points.
100 state race points and 20 show points would give the dog 60 total dog points.

Reasoning for this system:
A step in the right direction toward recognizing total dogs (IMO excellent hunting beagles with sound physical structure).
Still recognizes the top show dogs.
Easy for UKC to track because they allready track show points which are now called Total Dog points and they track state race points. Seems like the transition on UKC's part would be minimal but necessary. Hope their programmer isn't reading this. LOL

Oh yeah! And dogs with a hunt title would not be denied show points if it did not run the same day. Nor would dogs be denied state race points for not showing. A dog would surely have to run and earn a bunch of state race points and win multiple best of breeds along the way to even get on the total dog list. It would take an exceptional rabbit dog with excellent physical structure to make it on the total dog list. Would be a very difficult list to get on. Why not make it a challenge!

sound's good dan..scott I agree with you totaly I just think hunt should come first!!! to many guy's are breeding the hunt clear out of the dog's for show purpose..I also agree that to be a total dog the dog should have to preform in the field as well as on the bench field being first of course..so if the dog is a grhbch..oviousally it has proven it's self in the field...but if it is only shown on the bench for grand's or whatever than how can it win total dog for that hunt?? not trying to emply anything just trying to learn a little more...I have ran some ukc in the past got sick so i got out of it for awhile ...have ran some midwest.akc hunt's never had much of a show hound but do believe in a total dog conformation is important!!!!but I will always go for hunt over show!!! nothing wrong with show,just prefer hunt over show..good stuff here...

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frog pond kennel's
it's all about good hound's good friend's and good fun!!!!!
www.frogpondkennels.weebly.com

Jason, Total dog is not an award given at each event. Points are tabulated over the course of the whole year. Hope that helps. Welcome back! Hope all is going well for you! Don't know how long you have been away from UKC but you will find that the structure has improved greatly in the past 5 years. This discussion would have not been appropriate a few years back. There are many good structured dogs that are excellent hunting beagles. UKC will not provide a program until they think the breed has evolved to that point. I think we are there and still getting better. As described in previous posts it would be a very competitive program among the dogs that are excellent hunt dogs with correct structure and breed type.

thanks dan that makes a little more sense to me,,hoping to hit a few hunt's this spring...see if these pot lickers of mine stand a chance....

__________________
frog pond kennel's
it's all about good hound's good friend's and good fun!!!!!
www.frogpondkennels.weebly.com