UKC Forums - improving a dogs accuracy

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-- improving a dogs accuracy (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=328490)

Posted by on 01-25-2010 03:30 PM:

This discussion and some of the responses have got me to thinking about something.
Almost to a man, every handler/trainer I can think of that is known for having been consistantly successfull on a national level in all KC's are also well known to be very hard on their dogs in training. And I won't go into what "very hard" is but I think we all know what that means. Those guys ARE NOT the ones wondering if physical correction at the tree will make them quit treeing or starty leaving trees. I know for a fact that they are all over their dogs when they screwup. So how come they win all over creation with those same dogs?

Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-25-2010 03:40 PM:

I think to that there is not enough told about a pup before advise is given on this thing. A pup treeing a possom before treeing a coon I wouldn't do much to. Now after it had been petted up under some coon and got cought under a possom would be a whole differant thing. Same thing with a slick tree. Punishment is going to esculate fast as the pup gets more experience.
I think telling people to beat the dog before knowing more about the dog would ruin more dogs than it will help though. These people that are winning at comps. aren't starting with the common pup. They are harder and above average or they wouldn't be getting fed by those kind of hunters. Not the case for most people asking for help on here. IMO

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Posted by ronald schultz on 01-25-2010 03:45 PM:

does anyone eblieve that a young inexperienced (but accurate )young dog

can get screwed up hunting with a slick treeing idiot? i know of one!! also believe that huning a young ,relatively in experienced hound, by a jacklighter can make a slick treeing dog, maybe something to think about if you have trouble with slicks!?!?!rather than blaming the bloodline?

Posted by treberta on 01-25-2010 03:50 PM:

I'm guessing those of you that disagree with punishing a dog are against punishing youre kids when they screw up as well. The only way to fix a problem that is becoming consistent is to let that dog know what it's doing is wrong! Let it slide 3 or 4 times and all you will get is slick trees. We all have oppinions and some may work for others that wouldn't work for me. I think alot of it depends on how timid youre dog is.

For me if I can't correct it by punishing it when it does somehting wrong I want no part of it. Just think about it. How many people had to learn a trade?

A dog has to learn by doing good as well as making mistakes. Even the naturals have a bump in the road at some point. The key is to getting them back on the right path. If you can do that then youre a good dog trainer.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-25-2010 04:04 PM:

Re: does anyone eblieve that a young inexperienced (but accurate )young dog

quote:
Originally posted by ronald schultz
can get screwed up hunting with a slick treeing idiot? i know of one!! also believe that huning a young ,relatively in experienced hound, by a jacklighter can make a slick treeing dog, maybe something to think about if you have trouble with slicks!?!?!rather than blaming the bloodline?

Yep I would agree. I don't think bloodline has much to do with it other than the excitability level which in return would make a dog tree faster and harder. So those kind of dogs would have to be handled with a lot more disipline.

Posted by josh on 01-25-2010 04:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
These people that are winning at comps. aren't starting with the common pup.

Really? Where are they getting them? I would like to be in on the next litter.

Posted by BAWL_TRACK on 01-25-2010 04:52 PM:

though youngs hounds winning has had thier azz's shocked/beat off for doin somthin simple as backin a dog an hunted off........ You can start out with a cross bred dog an single register it an if it got it in to make anything i can be done same as above ,,,,,, my example the walker/red dog that won........he might of just wanted to prove a point that is not always the dog more like the person behind it huntin it evernite to gettin it crankin ,,, JMO

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Posted by Wingpatch on 01-25-2010 04:57 PM:

aint seen a good dog trainer ??

coondog trainer, now that still is the dumbest thing i think i ever heard, after 50 + yrs. at this i still aint seen a coondog trainer... i have seen several that thought they were coondog trainers [ some on this post ] but really all they are doing is takeing credit that really belongs to a well bred coon hound..................

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-25-2010 05:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
Really? Where are they getting them? I would like to be in on the next litter.

Well I would say top pups out of top dogs and bitches WITH some exceptions. If there were a place to just go pick them up though I am sure there would be a long line.

Posted by Matt Mays on 01-25-2010 05:24 PM:

Re: aint seen a good dog trainer ??

quote:
Originally posted by Wingpatch
coondog trainer, now that still is the dumbest thing i think i ever heard, after 50 + yrs. at this i still aint seen a coondog trainer... i have seen several that thought they were coondog trainers [ some on this post ] but really all they are doing is takeing credit that really belongs to a well bred coon hound..................

exactly right!!! coonhound trainer what a joke... nobody can make a coondog that wasn't born to make it in the first place... dogs can be ruined or fine tuned, but the nice ones can overcome bad training...

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Posted by treberta on 01-25-2010 05:28 PM:

Tell that to all the professioal athlete's. They were going to make it with litte or no training. No way in the world!

Posted by Mike Van Dusen on 01-25-2010 05:37 PM:

Sometimes a message has to be sent from the hindend to the brain that this will not be tolerated.It has been my experience that if their is enough gray matter between the ears, you can improve a lot of areas.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-25-2010 05:38 PM:

Re: Re: aint seen a good dog trainer ??

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Mays
exactly right!!! coonhound trainer what a joke... nobody can make a coondog that wasn't born to make it in the first place... dogs can be ruined or fine tuned, but the nice ones can overcome bad training...

There you go, just find the right pup and it will do it on it's own. LOL
The differance between a hunter and a trainer is a hunter will try to find the type of dog he likes to start out with hunt it. A trainer has to take what ever they bring him and improve on it or he won't stay in buisness. Easy to train one dog for one thing BUT to train any dog for anything is a differant story.
How does a good dog over come a bad trainer if he never gets in better hands?

Posted by Matt Mays on 01-25-2010 05:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by treberta
Tell that to all the professioal athlete's. They were going to make it with litte or no training. No way in the world!

tell all the clumsy losers they can train and work out 100X more than those professional athletes and be just as good... i was roommate with junior rosegreen at auburn, worked out with him five days a week and just as hard as him,i could double my training and take steriods and never be on his level... my genetics will not allow it... your response is ignorant, you should open your eyes

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-25-2010 05:57 PM:

I don't have any problem correcting a dog on the tree. I think the punishment should fit the temperment of the dog but I have had some pretty good debates on calling a dog when it is treeing. People seem to think that will ruin a dog.
To me that is like saying a kid can't quit playing, go throw the trash out and still want to go back and play. All it takes is likeing the game, knowing a command and haveing some discipline. Then you have the best of both worlds.

Posted by Matt Mays on 01-25-2010 06:05 PM:

Re: Re: Re: aint seen a good dog trainer ??

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
There you go, just find the right pup and it will do it on it's own. LOL
The differance between a hunter and a trainer is a hunter will try to find the type of dog he likes to start out with hunt it. A trainer has to take what ever they bring him and improve on it or he won't stay in buisness. Easy to train one dog for one thing BUT to train any dog for anything is a differant story.
How does a good dog over come a bad trainer if he never gets in better hands?

i didn't say you couldn't improve a dogs ability... but if you think you can make a coondog out of inferior genes, ummm not hardly... and no, a nice dog in the hands of a so called bad trainer would not improve unless changed hands..only point i was trying to make was the genes the dog was born with is the genes it will die with, one can improve a dogs ability but nobody can make a coon dog out of a crap eater

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Posted by Mike Mills on 01-25-2010 06:12 PM:

I made this post to see the opinions on this and as I suspected they are all over the spectrum. I have had both accurate dogs and some that lacked alot in accuracy even though my training methods were the same for all of them. That is why I feel it is a genetic trait. Would like to know if anybody has ever had any success turning a slick treeing idiot into an accurate dog without affecting it's desire to tree. And when I say accurate I mean 95% or more it has the meat.

Posted by on 01-25-2010 06:44 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: aint seen a good dog trainer ??

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Mays
i didn't say you couldn't improve a dogs ability... but if you think you can make a coondog out of inferior genes, ummm not hardly... and no a nice dog in the hands of a so called bad trainer would not improve unless changed hands..only point i was trying to make was the genes the dog was born with is the genes it will die with, one can improve a dogs ability but nobody can make a coon dog out of a crap eater

I agree 100%

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 01-25-2010 06:45 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: aint seen a good dog trainer ??

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Mays
i didn't say you couldn't improve a dogs ability... but if you think you can make a coondog out of inferior genes, ummm not hardly... and no a nice dog in the hands of a so called bad trainer would not improve unless changed hands..only point i was trying to make was the genes the dog was born with is the genes it will die with, one can improve a dogs ability but nobody can make a coon dog out of a crap eater

Okie Dawg can........ask him.

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Posted by ov_blues on 01-25-2010 06:47 PM:

The two best dogs that I ever trained were slick treeing idiots when they were young. I kept records and it was neat watching those accuracy numbers keep coming up the more they were hunted, handled and corrected.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-25-2010 06:59 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: aint seen a good dog trainer ??

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
Okie Dawg can........ask him.

Well I wouldn't want to becouse good genes makes it a lot easier BUT I have heard of a lot of good curs out there that had been tought to hunt coon.
Never said genes didn't matter BUT if you don't think bad handleing can ruin a good dog then we disagree........

Posted by Justin B on 01-25-2010 07:53 PM:

Re: does anyone eblieve that a young inexperienced (but accurate )young dog

quote:
Originally posted by ronald schultz
can get screwed up hunting with a slick treeing idiot? i know of one!! also believe that huning a young ,relatively in experienced hound, by a jacklighter can make a slick treeing dog, maybe something to think about if you have trouble with slicks!?!?!rather than blaming the bloodline?

I will agree that you might get a pup to treeing on empties with other dogs but unless that is what that dog is it shouldn't tree alot of them by themselves. I strongly believe that slick treeing is genetic. Ther was a very popular stud dog advertised around here for a while and you could not draw out in a cast without hunting with one of his pups. I saw alot of empties by dogs that all had the same sire. If I had a pup that would tree just because something else was treeing I would probably cull that pup.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 01-25-2010 08:02 PM:

Re: Re: does anyone eblieve that a young inexperienced (but accurate )young dog

quote:
Originally posted by Justin B
I will agree that you might get a pup to treeing on empties with other dogs but unless that is what that dog is it shouldn't tree alot of them by themselves. I strongly believe that slick treeing is genetic. Ther was a very popular stud dog advertised around here for a while and you could not draw out in a cast without hunting with one of his pups. I saw alot of empties by dogs that all had the same sire. If I had a pup that would tree just because something else was treeing I would probably cull that pup.

What part of genitics do you think would make a dog slick tree? Would it be not enough track, energy level to high, running with head up or what all would you say would cause such a thing?

Posted by on 01-25-2010 08:25 PM:

Re: Re: Re: does anyone eblieve that a young inexperienced (but accurate )young dog

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
What part of genitics do you think would make a dog slick tree? Would it be not enough track, energy level to high, running with head up or what all would you say would cause such a thing?

Ancestory unless it was caused by the leather end of the lead. Lack of proper displacement of said grey mush to the back of the head. Cause' them to wanna tip their head up all the time

?

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