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-- genetics........phenotype.....genotype (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=323437)

Larry, It seems you have written about the dogs you are hunting today going back to a specific dog you once owned. How is this not greatly limiting your selection?

Are you really recommending I start with Show Dogs, and then work up my breeding programs to try and end up with above average Coondogs? If so you haven't been at this very long.

Ability comes 1st above any other consideration, as the computer geeks say garbage in/garbage out.

Josh,

You are right my dogs go back to a simple 'PR' bred male dog from 1983-1988. He was the first really good dog I had after over 7 years of buying dogs and pups. His only cross was with a female that was Banjo (original Banjo) bred on top and out of the same sire on the bottom. That cross was what I call a good cross. I kept a male and female. The male was never bred. The female was bred back to a son of the original sire. That cross was better than the first. I kept a female from that cross. By that time the original sire and most of his line were gone. So I looked for an outcross. I didn't bred my female until she was 5, and I choose Sackett Jr. That cross was a very good cross. I then bred her to Stone. That cross was starting to show real good results, but most pups had a short life. That females 3rd cross was picked by a buddy. That cross only produced 2-3 decent dogs, and I consider it a failure. I bred one female and one male from that first cross. Both dogs produced above average dogs.

At that time I knew I needed another outcross so I did a whole bunch of research that involved about 50 letters over 100 phone calls, and over 2000 miles checking out dogs over a 5 year period. I finally made cross, and it was a complete failure. At this time most of the crosses that were working were linebred on Sackett Jr.

This is also the time that my last two dogs passed away, and my female here had to be spaded. That left me scrambling. At this time there are several individuals who have taken young dogs out of a female that I co-owned with a buddy in severval directions. That is what I have now. Young dogs out of buddy's dogs. Family obligations have prevented me from making any recent crosses, but I am more than happy with the successes of my friends.

Right now, I am simply making plans and rebuilding my kennel. Are my selection options limited? Nope I don't think so. I have plans for an outcross, and I am watching closely the successes of my friends for future breeding options. Add to that I read and watch everything related to treeing walkers just in case there is another line of dogs that have the same hunting style that I prefer. I have my eyes on a couple lines for the last few years and watch very intently. Limited options no way!

That in a nut shell is my complete history. Nope, I haven't raised a world champion, but I am also not ashamed of my accomplishments either as humble as they may be.

None of above changes the fact that all coon hunters including myself could do much better at selecting our breeding stock.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

bawhitman

[quote]
“You can certainly remove a polygene fault from sight very quickly, but you will not remove it from your strain of hounds less than six generations.”
How could anyone make a definitive statement like this? What do you even mean? You can remove it quickly in some organisms, but not in a hound in less than six generations? It is a ridiculous statement. Anyone can remove any polygene fault from their strain of hounds in the time it takes to cull the puppies from a litter that have the fault. There is nothing magic about removing the individuals from your breeding program that have the fault you don’t want. You can outcross until you are blue in the face and never get the fault out or you can breed littermates without the fault and be done with it in one cross. There is more than one way to approach the problem and nothing short of chance will result in six generations being the magic number.[unquote]

Please help me here. The above statement was made to refer to severe confirmation faults in the phenotype which was the subject at hand.

Having a severe fault in any mating pair each offspring will be infected or a hybrid carrier for said fault. Spread this over german shepherd hip problems and eye retina corrections. I take the position that since these faults still as of today continue in the breed, it will take many generations of direct effort to remove them from any strain. Is it a true statement that in any mating of infected animals, the offspring will be infected or will be hybrid of this fault or trait? Have I misread that with continued selection and test mating, confirmation faults require many generations to remove? You seem to have an opinion that would help if we could get a handle on it. I did make a reference to bones as in flat feet, etc. Yes, in most cases, six generations is the magic number.
[quote]
I have already pointed out many of the weaknesses of the two references that you posted on the redbone board. I hardly have time to critique the others, but one thing I am sure of is that our understanding of genetics just since 2000 (your most recent published reference) and most certainly since 1950 is staggering. The older publications are quite questionable. After all, DNA’s role in heredity was not confirmed until 1952 by Alfred Hershey (Hershey A, and Chase M 1952. "Independent functions of viral protein and nucleic acid in growth of bacteriophage". Journal of General Physiology 36 (1): 39–56.) I am not saying that there is not useful information in the books you listed, but anyone can buy books off of Amazon, pick a few out of context tidbits from them and post the information as: 1) their own information, and 2) meaning something that the authors never intended. [unquote]

Here you take another step, that which was unintended. My reference here is genetic drift.
Is it true that nature tends to produce the average of the breeding pair?
In hybrid individuals, is it true to state that offspring can inherit from the sire or dam's side of any pedigree? Is it true that litter mates be directly opposed in the genome, that is to say diverse as in family traits as humans? As you have stated, we can't see the genome, would it be safe to say the inheritance would be diverse among the offspring? Would it be safe to say that selection coupled with physical compensation, over time, would relieve the diversity among the same litter mates?
[quote]
The other aspect of that you are failing to acknowledge is that if treeing ability is recessive, dogs would come in two forms: those that tree because they have two copies of the recessive tree allele and those that don’t because they either have one or two copies of the dominant allele. This is simply not the case. Hounds vary from those that will not tree at all to those that will tree leaves. This, in itself, is all the evidence one needs to know that treeing is not regulated by one gene with two alleles—one dominant and one recessive.[unquote]

This not what was stated. I gave only one value to the treeing trait. I stated that proper treeing was a recessive trait. Can recessive traits skip a generation? Can a dominate be regained in any strain when that dominate has been selected against? If we select against a dominate and do not select to breed it in our crosses, it is true to say, we would need an outcross of an individual to regain the lost dominate. Also a hybrid treeing trait will not show as readily as a double recessive (of what ever value it contains) in proper treeing in hounds. I have not argued with the value of any trait that is dominate or recessive. I simply state, to tree properly, a hound will need the treeing trait from his sire and dam. I state that recessives can not be shown unless they are gained from both sides of the house. The sire must have it and produce it in the offspring. The dam must have it and produce it in the offspring. A recessive character can remain through many generations only to reappear when that recessive is doubled.

You are taking things out of context here. Maybe I am not stating it clearly enough?

[quote]
I commend your desire to achieve high standards in your breeding program. If you know of someone that produces 75% tree hounds, if you have seen it with your own eyes, then play the numbers game, buy several dogs from them and cull the ones that don’t turn out. You will have a great foundation and all the hard work has been done. You don’t seem to be doing that. You are on the boards posting misinformation about a subject of which you don’t have a full understanding—genetics. That is not going to get you a great foundation stock and it is serving to propagate misunderstanding about how to use genetics to one’s advantage in their breeding programs.[unquote]

Mr Whitman, I don't claim to have a full understanding of genetics. I am here to discuss it and possibly arrive at a better understanding. Is is wrong that laypersons should also be able to discuss matters? I can tell by your diverse position from noted and accomplished individuals that you also need help. Are you on my posts to receive help? Then just be helpful and get involved. Judgment is the easy part, understanding and helping is where it is at for me.

These posts lend themselves to "let's try together". This is very good, but I am with Elvis. First get it right, then show it in the woods. Education is for everyone. We are very far behind in learning proper breeding much less able to show it in the woods. Is it wrong that I have seen great progress in two breeds of hounds and would like to accomplish this for myself? Yes, we agree on one item. Genetics has to be where it is at, if we can achieve it. What ever evaluation you make of me will not deter my efforts.

bawhitman and others....

I need to stop here before things get too far out of hand.

Posts that I have made are being deleted. I fear the fun being had by Buddy Whitman and myself, well it is getting too far out of hand.

Buddy understands we are playing. Others are getting confused with this play.
To my knowledge, no bad information was given by intent. Those things that did occur were settled very properly. If you were involved, don't think anyone steered you the wrong way. Great information was posted and corrections were properly observed.

I suppose a person would have to be involved to see how much fun we have been having with a verbal duel. It was if I had a knife, then Buddy brings his sword. I get a gun and Buddy brings his tank.

We have to admit while looking at photos can be fun...I must have gotten bored. It is very true that I need help with genetics. It is also true Buddy is very capable. I thought it was interesting reading...but if not, please forgive me if I have offended. I will not continue it.

Confusion and misunderstanding was not the intent of either of us.

Learned Something

This is a really good thread, and I have learned something. Basically it seems like in order to succeed, you breed for a "type." Mostly line breeding with trial and error?

__________________
Nick Pease
507-822-1617
'PR' Thunder Blue Arkansas Pearl
'PR' Treedogg Mafia Style
"The only two things in life that make it worth living, is guitars in tune good and firm feelin women."
-Waylon Jennings

match traits from a dog or family line that the traits are common to.. then be SELECTIVE and breed for type.

pups get a differant mix of traits from the sire and dam,grand parents,great grand parents..each pup,differant mix. thats why pups from the same litter can be like night and day differant.

most pups will show more traits that were the type one of the 4 grand parents had then the parents. and thats the big reason linebreeding works better. it dont matter if its the parents or grand parents or great grand parents it will be the same type traits passed to the pups..


thats my 2 cents and what i call houndetics. did'nt learn that from genetics books ,learned it from making the right crosses by knowing what type traits both sire and dam and their family lines had and matchin them to know which to breed..so i had a direction to get what type pups i wanted. insted of like every joe with a female breeding to what ever stud everyone else was breeding to or buying pups out of..thats the biggest reason such a low % of pups per litter make decent hounds.its just a big bag of mixed traits .anyone says all pups in a litter dont all make decent coondogs,has never had the pleasure of a true line bred litter with matched traits in the sire ,dam and their lines.

__________________
Randal Raper -
RED EAGLE MACK BRED WALKER DOGS

Guys I remember when the dna came about in PKC. Rat Attack was considered 75 % fixed.He is now listed as one of the best reproducers of all times.He has 2430 pups and 488 pups and GrNite Ch or Nite Ch. 20.08 % for a Stud dog !!!!!!!!!! How can they tell if a dog is fixed by his DNA ????

__________________
GrNite Ch.'PR' Brushcreek Prowlin Billy (GRNITE CH. Prowler x GRNITE CH.Moore's All Grand Kate )2011 perfomance sire.. "2011 Southern Ohio Championship Over all winner & king of Hunt"
GrNiteCh.'PR' Brushcreek Prowlin Sassy (GRNITE CH . Prowler x GRNITE CH.Moore's All Grand Kate) 2011 English Days Invitaional Champion




Home 937-764-1144
Cell 937-205-4486 verizon
If you ask for the truth be man enough to take it, JEFF NORRIS

Jeff,

THe current DNA testing is done for parentage only. You can not make assumptions based on the DNA test used in the registeries.

I would suggest that you search DNA, but you can't there is not enough letters.

I will try to keep this simple. The DNA test use markers to tell parentage. Markers are not necessarily genes. They can be simple protein sequences. There are 10,000's of possible markers in dog DNA. The idea that the DNA test can tell the degree if a dog's fixed genes is incorrect.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Larry I was wondering if they just made a Snithouse guess or if they could really tell ????? Thanks

__________________
GrNite Ch.'PR' Brushcreek Prowlin Billy (GRNITE CH. Prowler x GRNITE CH.Moore's All Grand Kate )2011 perfomance sire.. "2011 Southern Ohio Championship Over all winner & king of Hunt"
GrNiteCh.'PR' Brushcreek Prowlin Sassy (GRNITE CH . Prowler x GRNITE CH.Moore's All Grand Kate) 2011 English Days Invitaional Champion




Home 937-764-1144
Cell 937-205-4486 verizon
If you ask for the truth be man enough to take it, JEFF NORRIS

lucky dog

i started breeding my old walker for pups for myself.i breed what i hunt .to hunt. an old line that someone else started linebreeding years ago and knew what they were doing.. i have always hunted dogs and bred them from the same line because of the traits or style.i had not bred a litter in 15 yrs untill 2 yrs ago. i bred my old dog the first time when he was 11.owned him all his life since he was 2 yrs old. he is 12 1/2 now and still throwin pups with his traits and the traits he got from two half brothers that were reproducers his mother was linebred off of. and his daddy was a reprodcer too. i was lucky to get pups at his age and even luckier that 6 of the 7 pups in the first litter made coondogs and the 7 th is being hunted on bear.got 34 pups all over the states now.(to me thats alot) and people book em before i even breed him.drive a long ways for a pup and some even come back for another,usually off a different female for crossing back later down the road.i have kept one pup for myself off each cross. all show the old dogs traits. even down to little behavior traits. i bought and bred my own females and got the same type females as the male i could.the old dog is a half brother to most every walker top reproducer in the last 10 yrs yrs.but i still think the reasons his pups make it is because of me being selective on which dogs and making sure both the sire and dam have the same traits i'm wanting to keep.if i got into trying to figure out genetics i would just get confused. so i just plain got lucky on my crosses all the way around. got to be the old blood or something. they aint off a famous all grand stud or sold by a well known stud owner or breeder.i know i sure dont know genetics. i cant see em. all i can see is what the genes look like in the traits of the hounds.i do know the linebreeding works,the old dog is a half brother to dogs close in the females bloodlines,and are all dogs that showed his same traits.with a old dog that had old blood to start with, its as close as i can get.not many left with what he was bred out of as close as he is.untill people start using something besides how many titles or who owns a dog or where it is on a reproducer list that rate them by how many pups and not how many real coondogs,very few crosses will be made that work- without matchin traits and like me,just getting lucky.

__________________
Randal Raper -
RED EAGLE MACK BRED WALKER DOGS

Toe Cutter,

I have always said you don't need to know genetics to be a good breeder. Think about it, if the old timers didn't know how to make crosses on good working dogs from families of working dogs, we would have no good dogs today.

One of the most important tools a breeder can have is family knowledge. Another important part of the whole deal is to have specific goals or traits to breed towards.

Number one most important tool available to a breeder is be selective. The key is selection, selection, selection towards your goals. Do not compromise your goals.

All of my post regarding genetics are just to try to illustrate that science does back up the old fashion tried and true methods that many hunters before us used. Make no mistake dog breeding is as much art as it is science. I think the art part comes from learning about dogs through many generations.

I would say from your post that you simply have your bases covered.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

larry

i like your posts,they make sense to me and give me an idea of how i got what i got without knowing how i got it....LOL.

i was just saying with no knowledge of genetics and as simple minded as i am, what i could see in type and traits is all i had to go by..breeding the best to the best only worked for me if both had the same traits that made them the best.

__________________
Randal Raper -
RED EAGLE MACK BRED WALKER DOGS