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Re: Allen

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Originally posted by Rough Northern
You've got my OK to raise perm and litter fees 5$. Maybe something to look at.

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Home of Tunnel Hill Hounds
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Okay I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so I'm gonna need a little help understanding.

I don't see how this "grows" point value. The program is designed so that the dog is "permanently nominated" and therefore is dipping into the fund for the life of the dog.

I had a pup nominated in the first years of the program. I paid 100 dollars for the sire and raised 3 litters of pups out of him. I kept four pups out of three different litters and paid them all up.

So, in year 1 I paid in $275.00 into the program in year 1. At the end of that year, I got a check for almost $1,000.00, at the end of year 2 I got a check for almost $1,000.00 (having only put in he original $275.00 for that crop of pups) I still have two of those pups, and they are STILL eligible for points even if they are finished to Grand Night Champion. I cold still haul them to a local UKC hunt and earn money even though the original first years pot of gold has been depleted.

Don't get me wrong....I'm not complaining a bit... I look forward to making money off those original pups for a long time to come, and all it cost me was $275.00. I just don't see how anyone can think that a program of this design can ever continue to pay out "big".

Everyone wants the dream of the giant pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and be careful what you wish for. Do some research and find out how many folks are "cashing in" on the large pots of gold in the other registries! I paid way more money into those, and got very little return.

To Allen's point, my question would be what percentage of eligible pups are being paid up? If it is a low percentage, them maybe the perm registration should be LOWERED to increase the overall number of eligible pups? I don't know...why would someone NOT send in an extra $25 for an eligible pup?

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

I say leave it alone, for a few more years. Don't forget that the main reasons that this program has been so hugely successful is that because fees are low and includes the little guy in paying for it AND in the rewards.

If you go to raising fees, you will start excluding people and that will lower the total amounts. You may not gain anything.

I've paid up my last few litters, permanently in the PP. I believe its an incentive for someone to buy a pup from me and I feel like it has a better chance of getting prepared and put in a hunt. I've more than made my money back. I'm surprised more litter owners aren't paying up their pups when they litter register them.

I also paid up a couple litters in another KC's new program. Besides being expensive, I'm not seeing that these owners have much interest in that KC. On the other hand I see the ones that are getting the big checks have several clubs in their backyard and are racking up the cast wins to "git da' money". Hopefully their pups are actually going to the woods to earn those cast wins... I can't and really don't want to help finance or compete in that kind of a program.

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Any time you increase fees you run a risk of loseing entries if you ask for too much. How much is too much seems to be the question. The poor economy certainly can't be helping and if it ever gets better it may show improvement in the program.
I don't think local clubs can afford an increase in fees/dog entered without raiseing the entry fee to cover it.
You don't want to lose the sires by to big an increase OR the litters nominated.

Every performance pup I've ever bought I've paid the $25 when I registered the pup in my name because it wasn't too expensive even knowing full well that as long as I owned it they'd likely never see a competition night hunt, I did it "just in case" for down the road for me or someone else. $5 more maybe but there's limits on how much you more than likely are just giveing away. I'm sure others do the same.
My point would be if you go after too much you may kill the program and I think it was meant for people to get something back while doing what they would be doing anyway without a lot of added expense.

Leave it alone. It has blown away every other program in the coonhunting game. If you can afford dogfood, you can afford to be a part of this program. For those who want to make more money, fine, the opportunity is out there to make THOUSANDS of dollars with your coondog. PKC is right there waiting for your participation if you want to go that route. Leave the UKC program alone.

$5 is not enough to keep the average hunter out of the program. The ? is how much would this raise the pt value. If it raises it to $200 it is probably worth it. If it only raises it a few dollars then it would not be worth it.

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Originally posted by JDC
$5 is not enough to keep the average hunter out of the program. The ? is how much would this raise the pt value. If it raises it to $200 it is probably worth it. If it only raises it a few dollars then it would not be worth it.

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Has any one noticed how many SS sires' and Breeders' stake sires' the other kc has.

Increaseing our sires fees in the P.P. and our list will dwindel.
33.5 pages of sires in our P.P. compared to 4 pages in the other kcs' list.Leave that portion alone.

"The point value being a hundred bucks or better is still a great return for the nominal nomination fees. Is the average hunter interested in a slight increase in nomination fees to increase the point value? You tell us. It's your program." If it's my program then listen. Find another way!!!!!!
The majority does not all ways know better.
Opps' I forgot majority rules, my bad.

Allen is there something wrong w/getting the funding from the Clubs.As in my above e.g. Do you understand it?
The easy way would be to increase the nomination fees. Let the participants flip the funding.
Why doesn't ukc decrease there 10% administration fee? To say 1%??? Don't get upset w/me now.

why change it $100 or more is still better than nothing. Dont mess with the stud part or the guys only breeding 1 or 2 females will drop out. Let it run and see when it will level off.

Last time it was posted, a point was worth $143.00. At just $100.00 per point, you make $50.00 for winning a 10 dog hunt. That is more than double your entry fee. So my question is......How much do you guys WANT to be paid for winning a 10 dog hunt?

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Originally posted by JiM
Last time it was posted, a point was worth $143.00. At just $100.00 per point, you make $50.00 for winning a 10 dog hunt. That is more than double your entry fee. So my question is......How much do you guys WANT to be paid for winning a 10 dog hunt?

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I have paid Performance Fees since it began and I did cash in big in the first couple years.

I usually pay in a couple 2 or 3 hundred bucks every year. And my pups usually make around 1500 bucks a year. 5 to 1 return, I would take that everyday.

Now for PKC SUPERSTAKES!!

I have Super Staked BO JANGLES for the last 6 years at 800 a year(4800), and have never got the first cent paid back from any of that. That is like setting COLD HARD CASH on FIRE.

People think they got to have it the SS pups and the average guy is never going to Drive half way across the country to go the SUPER STAKES.

UKC IS THE BY FAR THE BEST DEAL!!!!!

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Originally posted by WVHillBilly
I have paid Performance Fees since it began and I did cash in big in the first couple years.

I usually pay in a couple 2 or 3 hundred bucks every year. And my pups usually make around 1500 bucks a year. 5 to 1 return, I would take that everyday.

Now for PKC SUPERSTAKES!!

I have Super Staked BO JANGLES for the last 6 years at 800 a year(4800), and have never got the first cent paid back from any of that. That is like setting COLD HARD CASH on FIRE.

People think they got to have it the SS pups and the average guy is never going to Drive half way across the country to go the SUPER STAKES.

UKC IS THE BY FAR THE BEST DEAL!!!!!

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

I say leave it alone. I just did a quick calculation and if litter and pup nomination fees were increased to $30 the point value would be worth about $165.

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Kenny's Allnite Black and Tans
Moncks Corner, SC
843-697-5889
ChNtCh Allnite Gypsy Girl

I think this is the best program out there for the average guy. Almost anyone who has a stud can afford to performance him if they want to and alot of people can't do that with the super stakes or breeders stakes program. We all hunted the hunts and got paid nothing a few years ago so i think as long as you can make more than you pay in we should leave it alone. Coon hunting is not a money making venture anyway.

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Hey Will, I didn't intend to get your balls in an uproar, I just asked how much a 10 dog win has to pay to make you guys happy? I think it is a fair question.

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Originally posted by Will Walker
OK jim,lets just forget about the program all together plus lets all of us hunters get together and see if ukc can raise all the entry fees!! whats wrong with trying to better something?

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

allen

i think raising the litter reg & permanent reg would be a great idea. i think even if we went $50 litter reg & $50 permanent reg would still be a bargin for everybody. if everybody just realize this is a one time fee on a pup. $20 entree fee in a hunt, where else are you going to get odds like this on an investment to win this kind of money & everybodys has a chance to win money !!

i'm all for raising rates !!

I agree with one of the early posters leave the sire fees alone and the litter nomin just make it an annual fee to up enter the dog that would keep some money comming in even if it was $25 the first year and $10 each additional year. If you want to take a year off fine, pay your dog up the next year.

We can all afford an extra $10 bucks per year

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Lets see if I got this straight.

You guys say youve lost hundreds and thousands of dollars in the ss program and never saw a return, but you dont want to put a nickel more into a program that is putting money back in your pocket tenfold?

I am saying leave the sires fees alone.PERIOD Maybe higher pup nom. fees, but the higher is goes, the less dogs will be paid up.

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GRCH GRNITECH HILLBILLY MR. BO JANGLES
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Elvis: You got it straight!

I think the program is fine the way it is for its intended purpose. Too much emphasis here on weighing dollars going out to those coming in. Money is not what the spirit of this sport is all about -for me anyway. Lord knows money messes with enough other things I do. I don't want to make money more of a focus with the dogs.

The less pups the more the point value will be after the older dogs quit hunting. Raise it $5 and if that puts a few guys out from perticipating in the program then the return will be the same or higher. Or just leave it alone and each year the value will drop some with more dogs getting their share of the pot. Maybe then some would not fool with it anyway and it would flatten out or increase a little. Regardless it is still the best thing going in my eyes.

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Will,

Nothing is wrong with improvement....until it starts looking, tasting, and feeling like some of the other programs....

Look at the Super Stakes as the best example. First it was for the guys that wanted to take a "risk". The price was expensive, but reasonable still. The risk was high, but not nearly as high as in later years when there were hundreds of super stake sires.

Once it "caught on", someone decided to "improve" the program by offering a spring and fall division, and in turn, the studs had to pay more money to make it "feasible". Now it really caught on, and someone decided to "improve" it once again. Because it had become too much money to pay for the entire year, you could pay into the program for EITHER the spring or fall division, but as a trade off....you guessed it, the price went up.

Next thing you know..it costs $800 a year to own a Super Stake sire...and the risk was greater because there were far more super stake sires.... Then enter the "breeders stakes", which is even more expensive, and runs the risk of replacing the Super Stakes all together.

I just feel like the system is "working as intended". Grandpa taught me "if it ain't broke...don't go fixin it..." I'm just not sure that JiM, or myself think the Performance Program is broke!

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