UKC Forums - Can the fast and far running dog be kept in the small hunting plots of tomorrow?

Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
Show all 64 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Can the fast and far running dog be kept in the small hunting plots of tomorrow? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=319156)

Posted by Surveyor on 12-17-2009 05:31 PM:

This is a good post and one I have thought a lot about. The dogs I hunted 15 to 20 years ago were a lot different than the ones I hunt today. Used to be my dogs hunted with me-could go down a ridge or up a valley or down a creek and the dog stayed fairly close, usually close enough I could hear them walking and they always seemed to find a coon where I took them, if not when you reached the end of the area you wanted to hunt you just called softly "come on buddy let's go" and they came. I, like most, bred these dogs to the big hunt winners and now hunting a valley or ridge or tree line with one of them is not likely cause if they dont hit a good track right off they will blow through there till they do. Why?? because this is what we (we being most all the hunters I draw in hunts today) bred in them. Lets face it, the dog that hunts with you and works the first track it comes to regardless of how old it is, will get smoked in the hunts by the dog that flies in there a half mile and trees a easy one. That being said I think the dogs of today tree way more coon way faster than the dogs of yesterday, but unfortunatly part of the "pleasure" in pleasure hunting is lost when you have to "shudder" everytime you cut them loose wondering if you will end up in someones yard or they will end up on a highway. With the urban sprawl and development will we all end up hunting curs?-maybe after we get a few tresspassing tickets, who knows?

__________________
Mike Sheppard
Sheppard's Northern Blue's
Home of UKC GR NT CH, PKC CH
2 time world finalist, 10th overall and high scoring Bluetick of the 2010 UKC World Coonhound Championship
NASHOBA VALLEY PIAZON, (RIP)
his littermate brother
UKC NT CH SHEPPARDS NORTHERN
BLUE LONER (RIP)
UKC GR NT CH RATTLERS BLUE SKY (RIP)
UKC Gr NT CH, PKC Ch Sheppard's Northern Blue Abbie, (PiazonxSky) UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Sheppards Northern Blue Punkin (PiazonXAlice) High scoring Bluetick of the 2015 (50th anniversary) Grand American, 2017 National Grand Nite Champion of breed, 2017 BBOA zone 4 Nite hunt dog of the year. Queen of hunt on 2019 Grand National Bluetick Reunion, 5th place and High Scoring Bluetick of 2019 UKC world Nite hunt Championship, 2019 Triple Crown Winner.
UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Mckintosh's Blue Flame Chopper
Gr Nt Ch Sheppards Northern Blue Goomba (Piazon X Dizzie) 14th place 2017 UKC world coon hound championship 100 purina point cast wins in 2018
and several other blueticks of lesser accomplishments

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 05:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
This is a good post and one I have thought a lot about. The dogs I hunted 15 to 20 years ago were a lot different than the ones I hunt today. Used to be my dogs hunted with me-could go down a ridge or up a valley or down a creek and the dog stayed fairly close, usually close enough I could hear them walking and they always seemed to find a coon where I took them, if not when you reached the end of the area you wanted to hunt you just called softly "come on buddy let's go" and they came. I, like most, bred these dogs to the big hunt winners and now hunting a valley or ridge or tree line with one of them is not likely cause if they dont hit a good track right off they will blow through there till they do. Why?? because this is what we (we being most all the hunters I draw in hunts today) bred in them. Lets face it, the dog that hunts with you and works the first track it comes to regardless of how old it is, will get smoked in the hunts by the dog that flies in there a half mile and trees a easy one. That being said I think the dogs of today tree way more coon way faster than the dogs of yesterday, but unfortunatly part of the "pleasure" in pleasure hunting is lost when you have to "shudder" everytime you cut them loose wondering if you will end up in someones yard or they will end up on a highway. With the urban sprawl and development will we all end up hunting curs?-maybe after we get a few tresspassing tickets, who knows?

Yep, good post

__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-17-2009 06:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Dogs aren't like women. You can't raise a woman they way you want her. If you start with a pup it is a blank sheat of paper. If you need an eraser it is becouse of the artest mistake not the paper.

I can usually find a way to agree with someone most of the time, but this is the most untrue statement ever made. A pups is not a blank sheet of paper. Coondogs are absolutely born and not made. They come pre-wired with everything from a complete set of tools to absolutely zero tools to run and tree coon. You can make improvements, but you are not going to completely rewire what was born in. Case in point, some dogs may never tree, you can beg and plead all your want, but they will never be a tree dog. Some dogs are mean, you can beat and scold and shock all you want, but all they will do is fool you.

A trainer of hound puppies simply brings out natural ability and characteristics, you don't alter what was given to them by their breeding. If you think you have this kind of ability you should be there in Oklahoma buying up all the culls and selling them as finished dogs for 10X what you bought them for.

__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by Rick Ennen on 12-17-2009 06:45 PM:

I once had two females I raised as pups. A year apart in age, same mother, different fathers, one could only run hot tracks, the other could run most any quality of tracks. Both would only hunt close.

Coons in my area are spread out and spotty on most nights. It took a few to several miles of walking most nights to get those dogs on a few tracks. Some nights i couldn't seem to walk far enough to get on any tracks.

I grew to hate both dogs. The difference in their noses didn't seem to make a hill of beans difference in the number of coons they treed. They were limited in what they could do by how they hunted.

Then I got a new pup that would listen to me when I told him to go. If he didn't go far enough I encouraged him to go farther. He listened to me and eventually figured out that we are out to hunt coons, not make me walk miles. My new pup also adapted to my thin coon population and learned he had to take every track he could find. There may not be a better one farther into the woods.

My hunting log shows that even as a yearling, my new pup treed MORE THAN THREE TIMES as many coons in his first year as my close hunting dogs ever treed in their best years. I kid you not. I was three times as many.

I've also noticed that the total amount of walking I do with this wide hunting dog is less than with the close dogs. He is surgical about going after coons and gets it done. the nice thing now too is that when I'm walking I'm walking to a tree and not walking to find a track. that's my dog's job.

It's simple logic. A good dog that will go the required distance to tree a coon will over the long haul tree more coons than will a dog that has a limit to how far he will go.

If you have lots of coons and small patches then yes, you can get by with a different type of dog. I know what works me.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 06:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rick Ennen
I once had two females I raised as pups. A year apart in age, same mother, different fathers, one could only run hot tracks, the other could run most any quality of tracks. Both would only hunt close.

Coons in my area are spread out and spotty on most nights. It took a few to several miles of walking most nights to get those dogs on a few tracks. Some nights i couldn't seem to walk far enough to get on any tracks.

I grew to hate both dogs. The difference in their noses didn't seem to make a hill of beans difference in the number of coons they treed. They were limited in what they could do by how they hunted.

Then I got a new pup that would listen to me when I told him to go. If he didn't go far enough I encouraged him to go farther. He listened to me and eventually figured out that we are out to hunt coons, not make me walk miles. My new pup also adapted to my thin coon population and learned he had to take every track he could find. There may not be a better one farther into the woods.

My hunting log shows that even as a yearling, my new pup treed MORE THAN THREE TIMES as many coons in his first year as my close hunting dogs ever treed in their best years. I kid you not. I was three times as many.

I've also noticed that the total amount of walking I do with this wide hunting dog is less than with the close dogs. He is surgical about going after coons and gets it done. the nice thing now too is that when I'm walking I'm walking to a tree and not walking to find a track. that's my dog's job.

It's simple logic. A good dog that will go the required distance to tree a coon will over the long haul tree more coons than will a dog that has a limit to how far he will go.

If you have lots of coons and small patches then yes, you can get by with a different type of dog. I know what works me.

Sounds like you have a dog that will hunt his ground as he goes but go as deep as he needs too. That is what I have been trying to get across. You can put a dog like that in a small place,give him tim to hunt it and call him back if you need to if he is going to get ran over or on other property. They don't have to be slow or stay close if they will just cover the ground as they go.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 07:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
I can usually find a way to agree with someone most of the time, but this is the most untrue statement ever made. A pups is not a blank sheet of paper. Coondogs are absolutely born and not made. They come pre-wired with everything from a complete set of tools to absolutely zero tools to run and tree coon. You can make improvements, but you are not going to completely rewire what was born in. Case in point, some dogs may never tree, you can beg and plead all your want, but they will never be a tree dog. Some dogs are mean, you can beat and scold and shock all you want, but all they will do is fool you.

A trainer of hound puppies simply brings out natural ability and characteristics, you don't alter what was given to them by their breeding. If you think you have this kind of ability you should be there in Oklahoma buying up all the culls and selling them as finished dogs for 10X what you bought them for.

All dogs are born with inherited treites. Most people take that for granted or common scence. All the rest can be molded with a GOOD open minded trainer.
Even the inherited treits can be controlled.
Example; border collie; they have a very strong instinct to gather or heard. That is to put all a deard in a circle and the instinct allso tell them to find comfort at the 12 oclock from you. For them to come around and drive a heard away from you is totaly against every instinct they have. BUT IF YOU KNOW THE STEPS TO TAKE you can TRAIN them to do it.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-17-2009 07:14 PM:

And as I said, why take all the time to "train" a hound to hunt like you want when you can just go find another that does what you want naturally? What a hassle, but if you have the time its yours to use however you wish.

__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 07:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
And as I said, why take all the time to "train" a hound to hunt like you want when you can just go find another that does what you want naturally? What a hassle, but if you have the time its yours to use however you wish.

You find a breeder good enough to breed in heal, come, only hunt coon, and all the other things I like in my dogs and I will buy one. Sounds like you just buy one someone else trained for you. They don't come out of the whomb like that.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-17-2009 07:29 PM:

Teaching commands and tricks is totally different to me than changing hunting style. I can teach a dog to load, sit, heel ect, but I won't try to change tree style, how far they hunt, how quick they locate and how quick they run a track.

If they can't do these things to what I like, I move on

__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-17-2009 07:37 PM:

Grady:

Do your train your dogs for:

how much they bark on track?
If they tree on the wood or off?
How many barks per minute they tree?
If they strike quick or wait till they have it lined out?
If they move around the tree or stand still?
If they slobber or not on the tree?

__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 08:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
Grady:

Do your train your dogs for:

how much they bark on track?
If they tree on the wood or off?
How many barks per minute they tree?
If they strike quick or wait till they have it lined out?
If they move around the tree or stand still?
If they slobber or not on the tree?

No that is the common sence part or I was talking about although some of it can begreatly altered.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-17-2009 08:05 PM:

I guess then my questions becomes that if you want to alter these kinds of things in a dog what are the things that they come with that make the ones you are altering so irreplacable that you want to change these things instead of getting a different dog.

I am not saying it can't be done, I am asking why do it? Are you that attached the the individual dog that you are willing to spend that amount of time making it into a dog that suits you? If you are going to breed why would you want a dog your have to alter that way?? I just don't get the mentality thats all.

__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-17-2009 08:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
I guess then my questions becomes that if you want to alter these kinds of things in a dog what are the things that they come with that make the ones you are altering so irreplacable that you want to change these things instead of getting a different dog.

I am not saying it can't be done, I am asking why do it? Are you that attached the the individual dog that you are willing to spend that amount of time making it into a dog that suits you? If you are going to breed why would you want a dog your have to alter that way?? I just don't get the mentality thats all.

Briar I don't breed. I like to start with a pup straight off mom and no bad habbits. If I put a bad habbit in this one it wouldn't do any good to go get another. I would screw it up too. I don't like starting with some one else's mistakes. I have done it but it is more work fixing and problem solving than raiseing and training one into the dog you want.

Posted by jculler8 on 12-17-2009 09:59 PM:

My original post: Truth is... a good dog will go until it finds a track it can tree. A Garmin is used to call them back when they're gettin close to a road. That's a good dog for ya.

Your reply to MY POST: Did you not read the post. We were talking about the dogs that go further than they have to to find a coon. What I am saying is if mine trees in 1/4 mile and yours goes out of hearing who has the best dog?
One more thing, A GOOD DOG is a matter of opinion. Everyone has a differant opinion of what one is. Like me I will take the 1/4 mile dog every time as long as if the coon isn't in the first 1/4 mile he will keep going till he finds one or I cal him back. I better not have to go get him though.
Oh you can't call one back with a Garmin either and most can't call there dogs in. You can watch it get hit on the Garmin though.

Now TODAY you're saying this:

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Sounds like you have a dog that will hunt his ground as he goes but go as deep as he needs too. That is what I have been trying to get across. You can put a dog like that in a small place,give him tim to hunt it and call him back if you need to if he is going to get ran over or on other property. They don't have to be slow or stay close if they will just cover the ground as they go.

My reply: YOU'RE AN IDIOT.

Come hunt with me and my dogs. I see them getting close to railroad tracks on the GARMIN at over 500 yards away, I call, and MY dog comes! That's the way it is. If you don't believe me or my opinion, you can come along for a few hunts or call anyone that has hunted with me and my dogs a few times...

Ohhh and BTW, last time I checked, no you cannot call a dog back with a Garmin and NO YOU CAN'T SEE IT GET HIT ON THE ROAD WITH THE GARMIN EITHER!!!

Train your dogs how you like and I'll keep training mine how I like and keep bringing home the $ and win slips.

I would consider winning 13 casts out of 18 hunts in a year pretty good success!

__________________
OAKS POINT KENNELS

HOME OF

PKC CH GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' OAKS POINT COON BUSTIN' BELLE HTX 2013 UKC Top 100 (May 2006-January 2017)

'PR' OAKS POINT STRIKE-EM OUT BEAU (May 2006-June 2016)

PKC CH NITECH GRCH 'PR' COON BUSTIN' WHITE STUFF

CH 'PR' GOLD RUSH EXPO

'PR' BLACK KNIGHT'S BALU JETTA (May 2013-October 2015)

CH 'PR' CHERRY CREEK XBOX 2016 Treeing Walker Days King of Show

Posted by Richard Nethery on 12-18-2009 12:16 AM:

I think that in the future, with hunting land getting smaller and smaller, that the Wide hunting hard going hounds will be more of a nucense than an advantage, when it comes to hunting.
Myself, I really prefer a very close hunting easy handeling hound.
I would prefer one that you dont need a leash to get out of the woods with.
Its hard to enjoy a hound thats gonna get you in a bind every time you hunt it.

__________________
Home of
Log Woods Chester, Treeing Walker,

GRNITECH GR"CH "PR" KIZERS Bleedin Blue Slugger, Bluetick and PR Netherys Trixie Bluetick

Posted by Justin Smith on 12-18-2009 12:24 AM:

Most dogs want to please and follow your lead .... if you walk a young dog and call him back as you change directions and spend time with them ... they'll hunt close enough except on the occasions when winding is good or they just get after a fast one.

No dog alive it tough enough to disobey you if you don't want them to ...

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-18-2009 12:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jculler8
My original post: Truth is... a good dog will go until it finds a track it can tree. A Garmin is used to call them back when they're gettin close to a road. That's a good dog for ya.

Your reply to MY POST: Did you not read the post. We were talking about the dogs that go further than they have to to find a coon. What I am saying is if mine trees in 1/4 mile and yours goes out of hearing who has the best dog?
One more thing, A GOOD DOG is a matter of opinion. Everyone has a differant opinion of what one is. Like me I will take the 1/4 mile dog every time as long as if the coon isn't in the first 1/4 mile he will keep going till he finds one or I cal him back. I better not have to go get him though.
Oh you can't call one back with a Garmin either and most can't call there dogs in. You can watch it get hit on the Garmin though.

(OK got this in the wrong place) should be at bottom.

So if I am an ideot I guess you would be to. Becouse the only thing I can find in the whole thing that we didn't agree on was being able to see your dog get ran over with a garmin. I am thinking if you see him in the road and all the sudden lose signal on him. He has probubley been ran over and your collar trash. The rest we are agreeing on.
But hey I have 1/2 of a 9th. grade education. Best excuse I have what about you.

My reply: YOU'RE AN IDIOT.

Come hunt with me and my dogs. I see them getting close to railroad tracks on the GARMIN at over 500 yards away, I call, and MY dog comes! That's the way it is. If you don't believe me or my opinion, you can come along for a few hunts or call anyone that has hunted with me and my dogs a few times...

Ohhh and BTW, last time I checked, no you cannot call a dog back with a Garmin and NO YOU CAN'T SEE IT GET HIT ON THE ROAD WITH THE GARMIN EITHER!!!

Train your dogs how you like and I'll keep training mine how I like and keep bringing home the $ and win slips.

I would consider winning 13 casts out of 18 hunts in a year pretty good success!

Posted by intellectualist on 12-18-2009 01:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
This is a good post and one I have thought a lot about. The dogs I hunted 15 to 20 years ago were a lot different than the ones I hunt today. Used to be my dogs hunted with me-could go down a ridge or up a valley or down a creek and the dog stayed fairly close, usually close enough I could hear them walking and they always seemed to find a coon where I took them, if not when you reached the end of the area you wanted to hunt you just called softly "come on buddy let's go" and they came. I, like most, bred these dogs to the big hunt winners and now hunting a valley or ridge or tree line with one of them is not likely cause if they dont hit a good track right off they will blow through there till they do. Why?? because this is what we (we being most all the hunters I draw in hunts today) bred in them. Lets face it, the dog that hunts with you and works the first track it comes to regardless of how old it is, will get smoked in the hunts by the dog that flies in there a half mile and trees a easy one. That being said I think the dogs of today tree way more coon way faster than the dogs of yesterday, but unfortunatly part of the "pleasure" in pleasure hunting is lost when you have to "shudder" everytime you cut them loose wondering if you will end up in someones yard or they will end up on a highway. With the urban sprawl and development will we all end up hunting curs?-maybe after we get a few tresspassing tickets, who knows?

Best post so far right here!

Posted by Okie Dawg on 12-18-2009 01:06 AM:

Intell, I would agree.

Posted by Tim MACHA on 12-18-2009 02:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Justin Smith
Most dogs want to please and follow your lead .... if you walk a young dog and call him back as you change directions and spend time with them ... they'll hunt close enough except on the occasions when winding is good or they just get after a fast one.

No dog alive it tough enough to disobey you if you don't want them to ...

If you treat a dog right and he respects you, it will figure out what please you and what doesn't. I am running a young dog that just turned 2. I worked him with a shock collar from the get go about coming when called. After he found out that coming in to me wouldn't end up with a whoopin', he will check in about every 15 to 20 minutes by himself. If there is company, he will more than likely go with them. I hunt a lot off a Gator. He has learned to listen for it and will come to it if he doesn't get something going and will also bird dog with me along field edges. One of the most important part of a dog's brain is knowing what please you.

__________________
OFFICIAL FIELD TESTER FOR LEMS LIGHTS

Good people do not need laws to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws (Plato)

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 12-18-2009 01:16 PM:

Just to satisfy my own curiosity. So if you wanted to do this, you would strap a Garmin and a shock collar on a dog. You cut them loose, watch the garmin till they get to the range you deem "acceptable" and shock them till they come back? You do this for a period of time until the dog somehow uses its internal GPS to range itself to that "acceptable" distance and then comes back for fear of the shock??Kinda like setting up an electic fence in your yard for hunting range right??

Now what happens if the dog happens to strike a track and is running at 150 yards. Does he stop at 200 and come back because he is getting too deep? Of do you want it to keep going if you have a track going?

Help me get this.

__________________
The fun is over once you pull the trigger

Ron Ashbaugh
CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by Richard Nethery on 12-18-2009 01:46 PM:

I am sick of hunting dogs you cant handle without a Tracking System.

__________________
Home of
Log Woods Chester, Treeing Walker,

GRNITECH GR"CH "PR" KIZERS Bleedin Blue Slugger, Bluetick and PR Netherys Trixie Bluetick

Posted by Ray&Luie on 12-18-2009 02:09 PM:

Extinct

I think the Great Hunting Hounds that run with there heads in the wind will become Dinosaurs in the near future, and the traits that i cant stand will either get lots worse than they already are or get better im not sure. one thing is for sure when it gets to the point i dont know if i can get to my dog without serious danger to my self or my hound thats when ill hang up the Climbing Spurs !!

__________________
Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

Ray Hudson

Posted by tx slick tree on 12-18-2009 03:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Briar
Just to satisfy my own curiosity. So if you wanted to do this, you would strap a Garmin and a shock collar on a dog. You cut them loose, watch the garmin till they get to the range you deem "acceptable" and shock them till they come back? You do this for a period of time until the dog somehow uses its internal GPS to range itself to that "acceptable" distance and then comes back for fear of the shock??Kinda like setting up an electic fence in your yard for hunting range right??

Now what happens if the dog happens to strike a track and is running at 150 yards. Does he stop at 200 and come back because he is getting too deep? Of do you want it to keep going if you have a track going?

Help me get this.

thats where you use two electric collars to keep him going. you strap one to his tail when he stops on the garmin you push the button on the one on his tail he will fireout again like a rocket may beat the coon to the tree.

Posted by josh on 12-18-2009 03:23 PM:

I dont know how many times i have drawn a dog that has obviously been broke from covering other dogs.

These dogs can look pretty good in the company of average dogs, but If there is a real fast coondog in the cast they can look pathetic....They get beat on every coon and usually slinking around in the brush at every tree...real impressive.

I have to believe you would end up with similar concequences trying to "train" a dogs hunting style.

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:00 PM.

Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
Show all 64 posts from this thread on one page