UKC Forums - poll on crossbreeds

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- poll on crossbreeds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=31786)

Posted by Dirtdevil on 10-09-2004 06:41 PM:

Since when do unwanted coondogs end up in shelters ?

Posted by Timber Hill on 10-10-2004 04:19 PM:

Re: Why post this redundant question on this board?

quote:
Originally posted by skyblu
Why bother producing MUTTS? UKC supplies excellent pedigrees that are FULL of info about the ancestors of each breed - do your homework & don't mix the breeds unless you don't care about the NEXT generation of MUTTS that will end up being dumped in shelters, dog pounds and at the side of the road.

You know mam in all due respect I really think you should stick to writing novels and showing dogs because I don't think you would reconize a coon dog if you saw one.Most hunters do not dump dogs in the shelters and dog pounds if they need to be culled.Maybe your next Novel could be titled Genetic Mud.

Jim Wigley

Posted by wkfii on 10-11-2004 02:52 PM:

I would agree that this question is somewhat redundant. However, it never hurts to go over the basics and look at issues again- that goes for everything in general in this life.

What warms my heart is that I see that for most of us we have reached a consensus on this issue. A good hound is a good hound.

Other than the abuse we heap on Redtick, which he has earned, I would like to see if we could be more civil to each other. LOL

Posted by on 10-11-2004 03:02 PM:

Sky's argument is the very same argument used by PETA and such everytime they try to pass a law requiring kennel licenseing, limits on breeding, etc. It's the same as gun control, just chip away a piece at a time.

Posted by Driveshaft on 10-11-2004 09:29 PM:

BEST HOUND I EVER SAW

WAS A HALF WALKER HALF REDTICK, HE WAS AS GOOD AS I HAVE EVER SEEN TO THIS DAY. HE WAS A COONDOG TO COONDOG CROSS. IF IT WORKS DO IT BOYS .

Posted by starplott on 10-11-2004 10:19 PM:

The last 20 years

I have owned and hunted cross bred, grade, and registered dogs. It all boils down to what you really want. A hound is a Hound is a HOUND when it comes right down to hunting it. I personally have seen more grade dogs and mixed bred dogs that were culls than registered dogs, but that is simply because there is a vast majority of hunting dogs here that are NOT registered. Just because a dog is mixed or registered seems to have no real value to the equation. There are a LOT of dogs that are good hunting dogs that cannot reproduce themselves in all three catagories just as there are culls in all 3.

To be honest we really don't have much on this planet as far as domesticated dogs that are purebred. ALL the coonhound breeds are a product of mutts, mixed bred, etc. This is true for almost all of the regististered breeds today. Without people mixing breeds we would not have coonhounds or bear dogs, let alone foo foo mutts and kick me dogs.

However cockapoo and such are not a 'breed' cockapoo is 50% cocker and 50% poodle. you breed a cockapoo to another with more poodle than cocker do you still have a cockapoo or do you have a poo poo cock???

Me personally, I won't own an unregistered dog anymore. This has NOTHING to do with registered dogs being superior over mixed bred dogs when it comes to catching game. You will hear it over here that papers don't fill the freezer with meat and they don't catch game. That is the truth. I have my reasons for having a certain bloodline exclusively of papered hounds. If I JUST wanted to catch game I probably would still have the dogs I started with in the begining.

__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

Posted by J.J Melin on 10-11-2004 11:09 PM:

My 2 cents

yes and no,

i think if u have to cross breed don't do it out side the coonhound breeds.Also if u have to make sure it helps the ability of the hounds.

All those people out there every breed comes from anyother breed so do we all hunt mutts??? also English,Blueticks ,and walker all was reg. under the same at one point so???

__________________
Double M Black and Tans
Jeremiah J. Melin
574-870-5689

Posted by wkfii on 10-11-2004 11:23 PM:

Re: The last 20 years

quote:
Originally posted by starplott
I have owned and hunted cross bred, grade, and registered dogs. It all boils down to what you really want. A hound is a Hound is a HOUND when it comes right down to hunting it. I personally have seen more grade dogs and mixed bred dogs that were culls than registered dogs, but that is simply because there is a vast majority of hunting dogs here that are NOT registered. Just because a dog is mixed or registered seems to have no real value to the equation. There are a LOT of dogs that are good hunting dogs that cannot reproduce themselves in all three catagories just as there are culls in all 3.

To be honest we really don't have much on this planet as far as domesticated dogs that are purebred. ALL the coonhound breeds are a product of mutts, mixed bred, etc. This is true for almost all of the regististered breeds today. Without people mixing breeds we would not have coonhounds or bear dogs, let alone foo foo mutts and kick me dogs.

However cockapoo and such are not a 'breed' cockapoo is 50% cocker and 50% poodle. you breed a cockapoo to another with more poodle than cocker do you still have a cockapoo or do you have a poo poo cock???

Me personally, I won't own an unregistered dog anymore. This has NOTHING to do with registered dogs being superior over mixed bred dogs when it comes to catching game. You will hear it over here that papers don't fill the freezer with meat and they don't catch game. That is the truth. I have my reasons for having a certain bloodline exclusively of papered hounds. If I JUST wanted to catch game I probably would still have the dogs I started with in the begining.

Miss Starr, like I said there is a balance that can be achieved. You know the Walkers of today look more like what English Foxhounds looked like 200 years ago than the EF looks today.

One of the reasons for this is that the English screwed up the breed in the early 1900's by breeding English Bulldog into the breed and linebreeding that cross. Good example of a cross that should never have been made. To remedy the problem they bred in terrier blood and rough coated Welsh Foxhounds.

The reason why I think that our hounds are more houndy looking, and probably acting, is that we have some ancient and deep sources of hound blood that we went to- St. Hubert descent hounds (i.e. Bloodhound) and Gascon hounds, i.e. Bluetick. Probably a little beagle and harrier as well. LOL Your Plotts are of St. Hubert descent- at least primarily.

That is not to say that the old English Foxhound blood is not there in modern coonhounds, it is. These Walkers with the grey coloring can probably trace their heritage to Bluecap, circa 1759. Bluecap had feathers on his legs and a flag tail though.

The coloration of the coonhounds can be traced to the sources I cited. Redbones and Black and Tans get their coloration from the St. Hubert. The English is the Gascon and Foxhound mixed. Walker is foxhound and/or harrier. Bluetick is Gascon. Plott is a variation of St. Hubert as well.

We need to keep the balance and breed for performance.

Posted by warrior on 10-12-2004 01:05 AM:

There is one of Skyblu's arguments that I would like to answer.

She says we are giving more fuel to the antis by posting our comments about culling and disciplining dogs. I say horseshit. The antis already hate us so why should we try to play nice and hope they leave us alone. If what we do to remove undesirable traits our correct misbehavior is wrong then we should do as she says and quit it. I argue that culling and discipline is not only correct but should be encouraged for the betterment of the breeds. I will not act ashamed when I have nothing to be ashamed of. Why must we be on the defensive and change our behavior when we are in the right. Years of history prove us right. In the past worthless dogs did not last as good dogs were needed to put food on the table. Or should we accept that we live in modern times and that our hounds should be modern too and just a reflection of what coonhounds once were. I will never be a "modern" man, I am not in touch with my feelings nor will I ever. Just as my granny told me to never ever sell the land because if all else fails I could plant a seed and feed my family so to every animal I feed will earn it's keep or die.

__________________
David R McLeod
Animal Control Technician
Animal Control Eperts LLC
www.ace1ace.com
--------------------------------
"I'm in the Heart of Dixie, Dixie's in the heart of me".

quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JiM
....THANK GOD FOR BENCH SHOWS!!!!!!! Anything that keeps women and crybabies out of the woods has my support.
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Posted by wkfii on 10-12-2004 07:04 PM:

Re: There is one of Skyblu's arguments that I would like to answer.

quote:
Originally posted by warrior
She says we are giving more fuel to the antis by posting our comments about culling and disciplining dogs. I say horseshit. The antis already hate us so why should we try to play nice and hope they leave us alone. If what we do to remove undesirable traits our correct misbehavior is wrong then we should do as she says and quit it. I argue that culling and discipline is not only correct but should be encouraged for the betterment of the breeds. I will not act ashamed when I have nothing to be ashamed of. Why must we be on the defensive and change our behavior when we are in the right. Years of history prove us right. In the past worthless dogs did not last as good dogs were needed to put food on the table. Or should we accept that we live in modern times and that our hounds should be modern too and just a reflection of what coonhounds once were. I will never be a "modern" man, I am not in touch with my feelings nor will I ever. Just as my granny told me to never ever sell the land because if all else fails I could plant a seed and feed my family so to every animal I feed will earn it's keep or die.

Warrior, do you want to be the Secretary of State for NAADP? Bearhunter wanted to be the Secretary of War. LOL

When I used to get my shots at the vet ( I do it now), people would bring in their lap dogs and such, and just stare at my hounds. One of my Walkers started baying at one of those miniture pinchers. LOL The question was, what is that breed? Treeing Walker. What's that? You would have thought that someone would have least said Foxhound.

We do need to keep the youth invovled.

I agree with you, we should live our life and quit worrying about what people think of our choice of past times and how we take care of our hounds. I quit going and decided to do my own shots because the vet was hosing me on the cost and they were patronizing me all of the time. The straw that broke the camel's back, was when I took my Red Eagle hound in to have a partial tail dock (the tip would not heal, was infected and the nerves were dead) and the vet sent one of his girls in to ask if I wanted him cut.

Posted by SmilinCoyote on 10-12-2004 09:20 PM:

There are hog hunters around here who cross hounds with bullterriers. So I guess its what you are lookin for in a dog. They also will not breed tell they have at least six or so folks who want the pups. Sometimes they dont have enough pups sometimes they have too many. But the find homes.

Posted by warrior on 10-12-2004 09:47 PM:

Wkfii, I am honored that you would even consider me for such office.

I am deeply flattered and will gladly accept the office of Secretary of State. Won't mama be proud and she said I would never amount to anything, no wait that was the wife or was it both of them LOL. When's the swearing in ceremony, I'm real good at swearing. Just tell me this, what does a Secretary of State do? Do I get to appoint ambassadors? If so I would like to appoint Houndster to be our English ambassador. I will now accept nominations for the other breed ambassadors. ROFL

Posted by wkfii on 10-12-2004 10:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SmilinCoyote
There are hog hunters around here who cross hounds with bullterriers. So I guess its what you are lookin for in a dog. They also will not breed tell they have at least six or so folks who want the pups. Sometimes they dont have enough pups sometimes they have too many. But the find homes.

You know Smilin the English Foxhound of the 1800's was regulary crossed with greyhound and bull terrier types. The English Pointer was developed from that blood with the addition of a Spanish pointing dog. That was before the spuds bull terriers were separated from what most of us would call a pit bull. The terriers gave tenancity and the greyhound gave speed, the hound gave the scent tracking ability. Probably the tree in our hounds comes from terrier blood. In the Bluetick it would for sure come from the Mountain Cur.

I do think that many Walkers that came from the Carolina's have bull terrier blood- either the Spuds type or the pit type. I don't know this for sure, but I suspect, from some of the builds and faces on his descendants, that Carolina Casey probably had a little shot of that.

Posted by Timber Hill on 10-12-2004 10:21 PM:

Re: There is one of Skyblu's arguments that I would like to answer.

quote:
Originally posted by warrior
[B]I am not in touch with my feelings nor will I ever.

Now Warrior I don't think you can hold office.You must be in touch with your feelings to hold office in the NAADP.LMAO!!

Jim Wigley
Charter Member of NAADP

Posted by Timber Hill on 10-12-2004 10:30 PM:

Warrior

Can I be Ambassador for the Cross Breeds.You know the Genetic Mud dogs.I don't have any now but,they done pissed me off and I am sure as hell going to get some just to prove a point.LOL

Jim Wigley
NAADP Member

Posted by SmilinCoyote on 10-12-2004 10:43 PM:

wkfii I didnt know that about bulls and grayhounds. But it all makes since when you look at each breed seperate and then look at hounds. I am new to hounds and dont know nuttin. But I got a good idea what works. I enjoy my hound. I dont hunt him, he is a lil over a year old. Dont know anyone who hunts so I have to learn from yall online here.

Posted by Kid Rock on 10-12-2004 10:48 PM:

carolina walkers

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii
You know Smilin the English Foxhound of the 1800's was regulary crossed with greyhound and bull terrier types. The English Pointer was developed from that blood with the addition of a Spanish pointing dog. That was before the spuds bull terriers were separated from what most of us would call a pit bull. The terriers gave tenancity and the greyhound gave speed, the hound gave the scent tracking ability. Probably the tree in our hounds comes from terrier blood. In the Bluetick it would for sure come from the Mountain Cur.

I do think that many Walkers that came from the Carolina's have bull terrier blood- either the Spuds type or the pit type. I don't know this for sure, but I suspect, from some of the builds and faces on his descendants, that Carolina Casey probably had a little shot of that.

Jeez man, you named eveything but Rin Tin Tin and LAssie here. Where did they come from?

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I live out in the woods now, it helps me keep my feet on the ground...

Posted by warrior on 10-12-2004 10:55 PM:

Why of course, that is if we could get it approved.

You know that in all things crossbred it must first be approved by the master of all things crossbred SKYBLU. I would like to have UKC hire Sky to regulate all these horrible breedings taking place. I mean really all these coonhunters out there trying to breed coondogs what do they think they're doing. The bench show folks should be in charge of breeding coondogs. The field trialers should breed the show dogs. I ain't exactly figured out what the water racers should breed and I don't think they do either. All us coonhunters should shut up and be content because we don't know anything anyway. LMAO

Posted by dentree on 10-13-2004 01:12 AM:

I personally think a lot of time and hard work has gone into establishing the breeds we have now. Why mess it up? If crossbreeding is your thing PKC has a class for them. Breed'em up and take'em where no one seems to care.

__________________
Perry Planck
Never saw'em do that before

Posted by Bear on 10-13-2004 03:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dentree
I personally think a lot of time and hard work has gone into establishing the breeds we have now. Why mess it up? If crossbreeding is your thing PKC has a class for them. Breed'em up and take'em where no one seems to care.

Why mess it up?I'll tell you like I did Sky just toddle on down here and Ill show ya some mess ups,sittin under Big and Black(thats bear to those who dont know)

Posted by honalieh on 10-13-2004 04:51 AM:

Crossbreds

Reason for Pure Breeding : Papers.

Reason for Crossbreeding : Performance.

I hunt English. I've single-registered hounds because of their outstanding ability. A little grade blue dog, Boyd's Little Joe, helped our breed a lot. A ticked-up Walker, Hardtime Speck, helped our breed immensely. A couple of cross-bred hounds, Beshears Blue Boy II and Daron's Blue Reb (Lumis) have made significant contributions. Descendants of these hounds constitute all, or most all, of the English breed.

I'll take a red-blooded COON DOG over a blue-blooded idiot anytime. But, I'll admit it, my objectives may be different. My dogs are for hunting.

I still have a couple of sets of blue-blooded papers here. The dogs weren't any good, and no longer exist, but the papers are still just as outstanding as they were when I bought these pups.

If pure-bred is your objective, go for it! But, don't try to sell that idea to hunters, WE DEMAND PERFORMANCE!!!

Posted by dentree on 10-13-2004 10:56 PM:

bearhunter - Man, I'm too old to toddle but I get around pretty good. Even went to WV once to breed a female to Hardrock. I have lots of friends here that run bear. Most have a few crossed dogs. Usually when one of them pays out good money for a new dog it will be registered. There is no doubt that crossbred dogs can and do perform. Registered dogs also perform. There are advantages to having registered stock and I'm sure you know that also. There will always be both and a place for both. And I bet no matter where you toddle you will see some registered dogs treeing bear as well.

__________________
Perry Planck
Never saw'em do that before

Posted by wkfii on 10-13-2004 11:43 PM:

Re: carolina walkers

quote:
Originally posted by Kid Rock
Jeez man, you named eveything but Rin Tin Tin and LAssie here. Where did they come from?

I don't know other than a wolf. LOL

Posted by wkfii on 10-13-2004 11:45 PM:

Re: Why of course, that is if we could get it approved.

quote:
Originally posted by warrior
You know that in all things crossbred it must first be approved by the master of all things crossbred SKYBLU. I would like to have UKC hire Sky to regulate all these horrible breedings taking place. I mean really all these coonhunters out there trying to breed coondogs what do they think they're doing. The bench show folks should be in charge of breeding coondogs. The field trialers should breed the show dogs. I ain't exactly figured out what the water racers should breed and I don't think they do either. All us coonhunters should shut up and be content because we don't know anything anyway. LMAO

You will be an excellant secretary of state for NAADP. LOL

Posted by Bear on 10-14-2004 03:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dentree
bearhunter - Man, I'm too old to toddle but I get around pretty good. Even went to WV once to breed a female to Hardrock. I have lots of friends here that run bear. Most have a few crossed dogs. Usually when one of them pays out good money for a new dog it will be registered. There is no doubt that crossbred dogs can and do perform. Registered dogs also perform. There are advantages to having registered stock and I'm sure you know that also. There will always be both and a place for both. And I bet no matter where you toddle you will see some registered dogs treeing bear as well.

I agree,most of my dogs are reg.But dont over look the merit of a well thought out cross breed mating.It has and does work,not only for bear dogs but coondogs as well.Just look at some of the singled reg. hounds out there.

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