UKC Forums - paper jockies

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Posted by treberta on 11-12-2009 01:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
I AM WITH JIM ON THIS THREAD......IF COON HIDES WHERE NOT WORTH A DIME I DONT THINK IT WOULD MATTER TO MOST COONHUNTERS OUR HURT THE DOG MARKET........FOR WHAT THEY ARE WORTH NOW I DONT UNDERSTAND A REAL COONHUNTER KILLING 100 COON EVERY COON SEASON OR EVEN 30.....

Ill tell you why. To keep them from killing each other and over populating. You nor I would have any coon to tree if no one killed any andf that's a FACT!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by treberta on 11-12-2009 01:49 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by intellectualist
Your talking about people with 10 dogs being too many. Well 4 is two maybe three more than I would want at one time. Why do you have so many?

I agree. 4 is too many at one time, in my oppinion.

Posted by wildbill on 11-12-2009 04:19 PM:

Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by treberta
I agree. 4 is too many at one time, in my oppinion.

just depends on the type of dogs or should say how they hunt..

"back in the day" as a buddy tells me like i'm getting old,,i used to hunt 3-4 dogs at a time ,all mine or a total of 4 between me and my friends...

well the way some of these nighthunt dogs are bred,2 dogs are too many to hunt at one time..i wont keep a dog that shoots thru the country like that..

i used to grab 4 dogs at dark and be back home around midnight and switch out for the other 3 or 4 that was still on the chain..

that was when i had a local job and not driving semi,,and gone all the time...

i know one guy that used to turn loose 8-10 dogs at a time and then sit around and chit chat till they were treeing somewhere and go and start shooting coons and bring the dogs back to the truck and go get the others as they got treed..

i guess if a person had 10 independent nighthunt dogs it would be too many dogs to hunt at one time,,

but if those 10 dogs were bred right so's they all didnt have to be hunted 4-5 night a week so as to remember what they were suppose to do on the weekend..

it wouldnt be too many dogs and
they might be trying to keep the good blood around so they didnt have to hunt 500 dogs to find a real one if their dog passed on or got killed...

how many of you can say you can leave your dog on a chain for a year and take it to the woods and it takes off and go's hunting like it was hunted everynight???

thats natural coondog bred in ,not fly by night what evers winning the hunt bred into the woodpile..

if you cant hunt 4 dogs at one time ,,maybe your hunting for your dog instead of your dogs hunting for you!!!!!!

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Posted by blues07 on 11-12-2009 04:34 PM:

yea my buddy has 6 and he take 2 or 3 one night and the next night take diffrent dogs each time but half of these dogs are his sone they go with him iv seen this before this kid take 4 dogs with them and send one here and go down the road send nother one go down the raod ans so and so forth and by the time he got back to the first dog it was treed he would walk in and shoot the coon out and go to the other dogs wen we go with buddys we usualy one gets dumped and then we wait till it gets treed than we go and dump ours but i have done this dump one and the other guy i was with we went down the road and dump ours

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Posted by treberta on 11-12-2009 04:52 PM:

Re: Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by wildbill
just depends on the type of dogs or should say how they hunt..

"back in the day" as a buddy tells me like i'm getting old,,i used to hunt 3-4 dogs at a time ,all mine or a total of 4 between me and my friends...

well the way some of these nighthunt dogs are bred,2 dogs are too many to hunt at one time..i wont keep a dog that shoots thru the country like that..

i used to grab 4 dogs at dark and be back home around midnight and switch out for the other 3 or 4 that was still on the chain..

that was when i had a local job and not driving semi,,and gone all the time...

i know one guy that used to turn loose 8-10 dogs at a time and then sit around and chit chat till they were treeing somewhere and go and start shooting coons and bring the dogs back to the truck and go get the others as they got treed..

i guess if a person had 10 independent nighthunt dogs it would be too many dogs to hunt at one time,,

but if those 10 dogs were bred right so's they all didnt have to be hunted 4-5 night a week so as to remember what they were suppose to do on the weekend..

it wouldnt be too many dogs and
they might be trying to keep the good blood around so they didnt have to hunt 500 dogs to find a real one if their dog passed on or got killed...

how many of you can say you can leave your dog on a chain for a year and take it to the woods and it takes off and go's hunting like it was hunted everynight???

thats natural coondog bred in ,not fly by night what evers winning the hunt bred into the woodpile..

if you cant hunt 4 dogs at one time ,,maybe your hunting for your dog instead of your dogs hunting for you!!!!!!

Can I venture to say you hunt bluetics Bill?

Posted by wildbill on 11-12-2009 05:20 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by treberta
Can I venture to say you hunt bluetics Bill?

i will,,
if they dont head for the next county when you turn them loose,,lol
or boohoo all night on the same track,,lol,,

but thanks to a lot of true bluetick breeders those type dogs dont live long....

here's what i hunt ,mostly all joe house breeding or with a little old finley river blood in it,,
picture is old joe or on papers ,show champion saylors cruzen hawk 1,,his sisters pup in behind him,princess 2toes,joe was 13 in picture in '07' he died around 14 yrs old..joe started doing his thing around 7 months old..princess did it at 7 mths also,,shes 9yrs old now ..due to job i dont get to hunt like i used to,,but the dogs dont hold it against me..lol..i havent updated my website in awhile but you can see the peds on it ,at bottom of post,,copy and paste into your brozer..

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Posted by treberta on 11-12-2009 05:33 PM:

So if you cut 3 or 4 dogs loose you want them all to tree together right?

Posted by on 11-12-2009 06:38 PM:

Guys that cut 3 or 4 dogs together are prolly old school pleasure hunters and they prolly expect those dogs to hunt together. My Dad is 78 years old and he will never understand why we would put 4 dogs in the box and take turns hunting them 2 at a time. He did his hunting back in the 60's and early 70's before many on this board were born. Pack hunting is all he understands. If a guy wants his dog alone all the time, he prolly hunts it alone or maybe with one other dog but you hunt two dogs together regularly, they are gonna hunt together I don't care how "independant" they are. But who cares? Hunt'em how you wanna hunt'em. I get a laugh out of these guys that blow about how their dog will never be with another dog, never cover, never this, never that. They are doing a good job of advertising their inexperience because anyone who has been around hounds for any length of time knows that you can't ever say never when it comes to a dog.

Posted by wildbill on 11-12-2009 06:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by treberta
So if you cut 3 or 4 dogs loose you want them all to tree together right?

if there's only only one coon in that woods there should be however many dogs you turn loose on it not 1 dog out of 4 with 3 in the next county somewhere still running like a greyhound ..

i dont know how she does it but princess wont pull off her track even if another dog trees within 5' of her ,she will tree the track she starts,,saw her do it last year..

they started the track next to the road moved it down the treeline thru the field and a young male locked treed ,she never slowed down ,run track to the end of treeline ,out into the pasture and back to trees and bam treed with the meat,,in the meantime the young male left his coon and went to her just before she nailed the tree,,the male didnt get to chew on her coon ,he should have stayed on his own,,he was bred different than than my dogs ,he went back to the person my friend borrowed him from...the dog should have been able to spot the coon he had up ,we could see it with the lights off..

too many people breeding for nighthunt dogs without putting some coondog brains into the mix ...

coondogs dont have to be trained,,just hunted,,
i'll slap a puppy around with a hide till it gets where it go foaming at the mouth trying to rip the hide out of my hands ,then its ready to go to the woods, when it go's bugeyed crazy when it see's a coonhide,,you know somethings going to happen when it meets up with mr coon in the woods

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Posted by wildbill on 11-12-2009 06:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Guys that cut 3 or 4 dogs together are prolly old school pleasure hunters and they prolly expect those dogs to hunt together. My Dad is 78 years old and he will never understand why we would put 4 dogs in the box and take turns hunting them 2 at a time. He did his hunting back in the 60's and early 70's before many on this board were born. Pack hunting is all he understands. If a guy wants his dog alone all the time, he prolly hunts it alone or maybe with one other dog but you hunt two dogs together regularly, they are gonna hunt together I don't care how "independant" they are. But who cares? Hunt'em how you wanna hunt'em. I get a laugh out of these guys that blow about how their dog will never be with another dog, never cover, never this, never that. They are doing a good job of advertising their inexperience because anyone who has been around hounds for any length of time knows that you can't ever say never when it comes to a dog.

dang ,must be why my buddys call me old school,,lol

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Posted by CWT on 11-12-2009 07:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Honestly, I can't agree with anything in that post.
I don't think I have ever known anyone that bought a pup for the purpose of useing it to make money on coonhides so I seriously doubt the hide price will have any effect of pup prices. Neither will the economy. AO had record numbers and the PKC World Hunt was as strong as ever. Coonhunters basicly ignore economic conditions.
As for those paper crosses sam is concerned with, again, show some one out there breeding coonhound puppies for profit.
Why concern yourself with what someone else is breeding? If it is junk, fine, you just go somewhere else for your pup. If you get hosed on a "young started dog" that isn't the least bit started, who's fault is that?

If the Amish bought horses the way many of you buy coondogs, the roads around here would be clogged with brokedown horses and Amish hitchhikers.

This is one way to water down whatever breed you like to deal with. hounds are a dime a dozen but a coondog that has it from the get go is once in a life time. go check out the price of a trained police dog german shepard or whatever breed Ill tell you right now it is more expensive than $3000. If your breed anything to anything the standards of dogs are slowly going to drop and so will the sport. My father just went and bought a german shepard 3 years ago it was a bread for police work but he got it as a pup at 8 weeks no training at all and spent over 1500.00. Now some of you on here might but i know i would never spend that much on a pup coonhhound thats has no training at all.

Posted by CWT on 11-12-2009 07:06 PM:

my statement above was more for the sentence saying why concern yourself with what others are breeding. sorry for the confusion

Posted by treberta on 11-12-2009 07:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Guys that cut 3 or 4 dogs together are prolly old school pleasure hunters and they prolly expect those dogs to hunt together. My Dad is 78 years old and he will never understand why we would put 4 dogs in the box and take turns hunting them 2 at a time. He did his hunting back in the 60's and early 70's before many on this board were born. Pack hunting is all he understands. If a guy wants his dog alone all the time, he prolly hunts it alone or maybe with one other dog but you hunt two dogs together regularly, they are gonna hunt together I don't care how "independant" they are. But who cares? Hunt'em how you wanna hunt'em. I get a laugh out of these guys that blow about how their dog will never be with another dog, never cover, never this, never that. They are doing a good job of advertising their inexperience because anyone who has been around hounds for any length of time knows that you can't ever say never when it comes to a dog.

There's a difference in cutting 3 dogs and them bushwacking a coon in 3 minutes to a long cold trail. Dogs are like people in a sense when it comes to there nose, they are all different. Some dogs have cold noses others have hot noses which everyone obviously knows.

The point is would you rather have a dog that jumps on the ban wagon when the track is out of its league or have it go on and find its own track? I can tell you what I prefer. Most dogs that start treeing or I call covering don't look back. You see it once and it often becomes a habit. Jim, believe me I know what i like to see in a coon dog as well as you do.

Just a little story I have; I owned 3 nice walkers about 3 years ago. 2 of which were coon treeing machines and the other I hadn't owned very long but she was 5 for 5 anyway me and my friend cut all 3 of my dogs loose. they all struck and one took a track straight, one went a little left, and one a little right. Within 15 minutes they were all split treed within 100 yards apart and all 3 had a coon. If you coon hunters haven't experienced a good solid independent dog then you are missing out because it's a blast.

Posted by HOBO on 11-12-2009 07:35 PM:

So what your tryin to say is if a dog isn't hunted that it can't reproduce a coondawg??????????

I be willing to bet that there are just as many for real coondawgs that don't reproduce as there are non hunting females that don't. Just because a dog runs and trees a coon DOESN'T mean it will throw coondawgs.

It's ALLLLLL in the blood way before they ever start running and treeing.

Granted we all like to see the parents to our dogs run and tree like they are suppose to but just because they do that it doesn't mean they are going to reproduce.

We've had several World Champs that couldn't reproduce their way out of a paper bag.

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Posted by treberta on 11-12-2009 07:45 PM:

Hobo, I disagree. You have a much much greater chance at having a good litter out of a good solid male and female. In my oppinion the female has more to do with the success of a litter then a top male stud dog. It shouldn't matter what the pups grandpa or grandma did!!!!!!!!! It matters how good the parents are. Guys that breed these "brood females" make me want to pull ym hair out and then they wonder why only 1 pup out of 11 will even get the point to hunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't care how good the pedigree is if that female is not a coon dog then youre chance of having a successfull litter drops drastically.

Posted by HOBO on 11-12-2009 07:57 PM:

You can disagree all you want. Just because a dog runs and trees a coon doesn't mean its going to throw pups that do.

Posted by trackntreeman on 11-12-2009 08:39 PM:

pedigree's

my advise on this whole situation is if you are un-sure of buying a pup from a so called titled dog is schedule a hunt with him before buying a pup . I don't buy a pup unless it's out of one of my own females so i know what iam getting , or if it's a female iam fimilar with . The people inthe magazine that advetise BY PRIVATE TREATY are were your real breeder's are that are concerned with bettering the breed . I agree some are pushing paper's , i've spoken with a few that say i wil only breed if it will produce a all grand pedigree - thats a bunch of crap ! there are way to many dog's out there without all grand pedigree's that are top nouch coonhounds . I do agree that if we would breed more coondog's to coondog's we would have alot less culls out there .

Posted by treberta on 11-13-2009 01:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
You can disagree all you want. Just because a dog runs and trees a coon doesn't mean its going to throw pups that do.

I never said it was going to but the chance that it does is much greater. Think of how many better dogs there would be out there if people didn't breed ( Un-proven "brood"///good blooded females, same with males ) Guys breed a Brood female here, brood female there, where does it stop? How about just breed coon dog to coon dog. that litter will have a much greater chance if both the mom and dad can tree a coon consistently as opossed to a female that can't tree a coon. it only takes one dog that can't tree a coon to hurt a line of dogs. I am no big time breeder but only common sense will tell you that if you want a good chance at having a successfull litter to breed a good female to a good male.

Posted by HOBO on 11-13-2009 03:08 PM:

Explain how hunting a dog makes it a better reproducer.

Posted by treberta on 11-13-2009 03:28 PM:

Think of it this way.

Youre great grandad was a very good baseball player as well as youre grandpa. Youre dad hated baseball so he never played and then you come laong. Do you think you would have had a better chance at being a good baseball player if youre dad would have played and been good? I guarantee it, same as with worthless brood females. Can a brood female have a successfull litter ? Sure but you are doubling up on youre odds of having a top litter out of two good dogs.

tell all the coon hunters over the past 100 years that hunting and training there dogs had no outcome on todays dogs.

there's a reason guys can sell pups out of two top notch dogs for 1000$ over a top stud/brood cross for 200$.

I don't undersatand what is so hard to grasp for people that have coon hunted a month in there life to realize that youre chance of having a successfull litter of pups goes up drastically when you breed two consistent coon treeing dogs.

Why would someone breed a female that can't tree a coon is beyond me. How can they expect the pups to turn out if that female doesn't even tree a coon?

Posted by on 11-13-2009 03:48 PM:

If Sackett Jr had never seen a coon in his life, would it have prevented him from reproducing coondogs? If Niteheat Dixie had never seen a coon would that have prevented her from reproducing coondogs? If neither of them had ever been hunted, could they have still produced Rat Attack?

Posted by HOBO on 11-13-2009 04:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by treberta
Think of it this way.

Youre great grandad was a very good baseball player as well as youre grandpa. Youre dad hated baseball so he never played and then you come laong. Do you think you would have had a better chance at being a good baseball player if youre dad would have played and been good? I guarantee it, same as with worthless brood females. Can a brood female have a successfull litter ? Sure but you are doubling up on youre odds of having a top litter out of two good dogs.

tell all the coon hunters over the past 100 years that hunting and training there dogs had no outcome on todays dogs.

there's a reason guys can sell pups out of two top notch dogs for 1000$ over a top stud/brood cross for 200$.

I don't undersatand what is so hard to grasp for people that have coon hunted a month in there life to realize that youre chance of having a successfull litter of pups goes up drastically when you breed two consistent coon treeing dogs.

Why would someone breed a female that can't tree a coon is beyond me. How can they expect the pups to turn out if that female doesn't even tree a coon?

Earlier you said that the grandparenst had nothing to do with making a coondawg.Now your saying it does play into it. Hmmmm

If this brood female that has never treed a coon in her life comes from a family of coondawgs then chances are SHE WILL THROW COONDAWGS.

Hunting a dog does nothing to improve its ability to reproduce coondawgs all of that is set in stone before its ever born.

Sure everyone likes to see what a dog does in the woods but just because it does it like its suppose to it doesn't mean its going to reproduce a coondawg.

Looks at World Champion Beaver Lake Magic he didn't last anytime in the stud market. Look at Hardwood Dan he didn't reproduce anything like himself.

Posted by treberta on 11-13-2009 04:09 PM:

Brood females are coon huntings worst enemy. My piont is in my above example is that a line of tradition can come to a crashing hault due to one bad apple. Lines of good dogs are ruined damaged because of breeding these females that can't tree a coon. Most people that agree with breeding these 'PR'/brood females are the ones that do it. I don't get why it's so hard to understand, breed consistent coon tree dog to another consistent coon tree dog.

Posted by treberta on 11-13-2009 04:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
If Sackett Jr had never seen a coon in his life, would it have prevented him from reproducing coondogs? If Niteheat Dixie had never seen a coon would that have prevented her from reproducing coondogs? If neither of them had ever been hunted, could they have still produced Rat Attack?

I will say this JiM. Those two dogs would have never been breed in the first place had they not been coon dogs and if neither of them had treed a coon in there life I bet, no I guarantee they would have not had the impact on the treeing walker breed that they did.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 11-13-2009 05:09 PM:

Treberta,

I agree that it is easier selecting breeding stock when you have information regarding your breeding stocks strong and weak points. The more information the better. Therefore hunting our breeding stock just makes our jobs at selecting good dogs a little bit easier.

There are several buts. Hobo and Jim are right a dog's genetic potential is just that no matter how much that dog gets hunted. That is a fact. In the same token a top hunter is not always a top reproducer. The only way to judge a dog's reproducing capabilities is by hunting its offspring. I think that breeders that are unwilling to recognize that their top hunting dog is a poor reproducer hurts our collectible breeds as much if not more than guys who breed unproven females.

Personally, if I am going to gamble, I prefer to try to stack the deck as much in my favor as I can.

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