UKC Forums - Split Tree ?

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Posted by gfults on 10-13-2009 08:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LostHeritageKennel
But it was not obvious at the time the dog B was treed in. Or the judge would have immediately given Dog B 125 and made it known to the cast that he was doing so. Nobody would have even thought to start another five minutes, because it wasn't obvious until they got into or close to the tree. It was not determined that they were split until after the first 5 was up, how much after? That we do not know. If they figured it out before the other 5 would have been up, then tree him for 75, if not, tree him for 125 and minus his tree points and if a coon is seen in Dog B's tree, then minus his strike as well. Was just going off the information that was given. I agree that what you said should have been done. But since they weren't obviously split when Dog B treed in, then it changes things.

It dont matter whether it was obvious or not. The judge should start a new 5 EVERY time to avoid what happened. A 5 should be started when dog A is treed, when dog B is treed and when dog C is treed for the simple reason, " you just dont know". That way if dogs are split, the judge has covered his butt and the dogs were judged and scored correctly and fairly. As a MOH it really blows my mind when I hunt at other clubs how many VERY incompetent judges are being used.

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-13-2009 12:42 PM:

We treed last saturday with 3 dogs in a cast and 1st drop when we treed you could not tell the dogs were split what so ever. There was nothing to say we may even want to think of a split. We got to the tree's and I quote tree's, all three dogs were split 15' apart trees running north and south and we were walking into them from the north. All 3 dogs had a coon. We did not tree all together, somebody was making us wait a few minutes to see if anybody would move. Judge put the stationary on dog. If I had been judging I would not of put 5's on each dog either.

Posted by gfults on 10-13-2009 06:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
We treed last saturday with 3 dogs in a cast and 1st drop when we treed you could not tell the dogs were split what so ever. There was nothing to say we may even want to think of a split. We got to the tree's and I quote tree's, all three dogs were split 15' apart trees running north and south and we were walking into them from the north. All 3 dogs had a coon. We did not tree all together, somebody was making us wait a few minutes to see if anybody would move. Judge put the stationary on dog. If I had been judging I would not of put 5's on each dog either.

In a situation like that or after ALL dogs are treed, theres no reason to run the 5.

Posted by Randy Tallon on 10-13-2009 06:49 PM:

Common sense should have prevailed. Like John says note time, go to the tree, split tree evident, if 5 not up on second tree back off and let 5 expire. If dog A is treed in a hole and the 5 is let to run (just in case....) and dog B comes in and appears to be barking treed in the same location it's called as same....until you get there and dog B is actually treed next to the hole are you going to handle dog B before IT'S 5 is up?

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Posted by larrypoe on 10-14-2009 09:17 AM:

unless your dogs are OBVIOUSLY split, theres no way in heck Im starting seperate times.

you would have to keep track of each and every time each and every dog treed during the entire hunt, plus handle your own.

Not happening. Not in a cast Im judging. Not.Zip.Zilch. (did I mention aint gonna do it unless its obvious?)

You want do do it yourself, your welcome to. but if its on the same tree as the first dog, your taking a big fat minuse. Shouldnt even let you do that, splits are a judges call. But press the issue and Ill sure let ya roll the dice. You better be sure.

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Posted by larrypoe on 10-14-2009 09:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by LostHeritageKennel
Tough break for dog C. Tree him in for 125 and minus him. That's all you can do.

how about refuse the call. trees closed.

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Posted by Randy Tallon on 10-14-2009 11:29 AM:

And when handler of dog C tells the MOH that his dog WAS NOT TREED with dog A..........

Posted by edf61 on 10-14-2009 05:14 PM:

This has gone on long enough, all three dog's scratched!!!!!!!

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Posted by MLMCADAMS on 10-14-2009 05:32 PM:

well it ur duty to call ur dog split. if u cant tell ur dog split then u only get the one 5 min. if the dogs are split when u get there both tree's are dead. and the split dog gets bumped up to 125. u go and score the tree's accordingly. and like was said before if ur gonna keep track of when every dog tree's and make sure each dog gets a seperate 5 just incase they are split all i can see happing is u getn confused on the seperate time. at least i would! now if ur dog split tree's and u call him split by all means start time on his dog seperate but i aint givn anyone a break like that. if u dont know ur dog good enough to tell if he's split then just keep ur mouth shut and go on with it

Posted by K. Singletary on 10-14-2009 06:04 PM:

I have never seen a judge keep separate times on dogs that are treed together. That might sound good to write on a post, but that doesn't happen in the real world.

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Posted by Randy Tallon on 10-14-2009 06:07 PM:

I guess that puts more onus on the handler to ask to get a little closer and watch the clock reeeaaallllll close!!!!

Posted by MLMCADAMS on 10-14-2009 06:21 PM:

exactly never be afraid to ask to tighten up on ur dog incase u wanna make that split tree call. but like was said before i thnk to dont declare split unless your 100% sure or ur gonna take some minus points!

Posted by Randy Tallon on 10-14-2009 06:26 PM:

I got tired of the argument. Personnally, I always try to error on the side of the dog (notice, I didn't say handler...) I'll find a happy medium to the situation, whether it's back off the second tree for the time or consider the time that has passed and judge it separately.

Posted by LostHeritageKennel on 10-16-2009 11:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by larrypoe
how about refuse the call. trees closed.

That would defeat the purpose of having the rule wouldn't it? JMO.

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Posted by larrypoe on 10-16-2009 02:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LostHeritageKennel
That would defeat the purpose of having the rule wouldn't it? JMO.

I could type till my fingers fell off, and it wouldnt do a bit of good. Allen or kellem could come on here AGIAN.........and it wouldnt do any good...

A week later 99% would forget the official ruling and it would all start agian.

Go read rule 11. Its is a judges call rather a tree is split or not, not the handlers.

A handler can not split tree there dog......split trees are a judges decision.

Jesus H Christ kellem wrote his "genius" advisor article on refusing calls along time ago.

Maybe one of them will come on here and post it agian.........then agian there probably tired of beating the same dead horse.

Next week.................never mind

Allen posted it on this forum at least once and I think twice.

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Posted by elvis on 10-16-2009 02:58 PM:

Larry
are you forgetting that they implemented a new rule about treeing a dog on a closed tree?
The judge is now suposed to take the call but the dog must go on the card for 125 and be minussed if its not split.

This way, at the end of the hunt the judge cant refuse a tree call only to find the dog split but now its too late to call it.

Posted by Chris.S on 10-16-2009 03:26 PM:

It's really simple, you state that Dog B was treed with 3:30 gone on Dog As tree. When you get to the tree and realize they are split look at your watch and then run the five minutes on dog B using Dog A's time + 3:30. Which means Dog C does get tree points on Dog B's tree as long as he gets treed before 8:30 on your stop watch.

Posted by T Felderman on 10-16-2009 04:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris.S
It's really simple, you state that Dog B was treed with 3:30 gone on Dog As tree. When you get to the tree and realize they are split look at your watch and then run the five minutes on dog B using Dog A's time + 3:30. Which means Dog C does get tree points on Dog B's tree as long as he gets treed before 8:30 on your stop watch.

Thats what I thought since they new the exact time dog B treed, but I was only spectating

Posted by larrypoe on 10-17-2009 10:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
Larry
are you forgetting that they implemented a new rule about treeing a dog on a closed tree?
The judge is now suposed to take the call but the dog must go on the card for 125 and be minussed if its not split.

This way, at the end of the hunt the judge cant refuse a tree call only to find the dog split but now its too late to call it.

hadnt read that. not surprised. UKC changes its mind almost as often as the same threads come up.

kellem himself called them "easy minuse points"

I find it easier to just stay home and judge them my way....... free trip back home...... or a .22 pill

Ive had enough arguments over paper champions

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Posted by on 10-17-2009 02:26 PM:

I ask Todd personaly about this at AO because it happened to me the night before. As long as you knew what the times were then yes dog C could be tree with dog B. The judge should keep time of when the dogs treed its just good judging.

Posted by Randy Tallon on 10-17-2009 02:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris.S
It's really simple, you state that Dog B was treed with 3:30 gone on Dog As tree. When you get to the tree and realize they are split look at your watch and then run the five minutes on dog B using Dog A's time + 3:30. Which means Dog C does get tree points on Dog B's tree as long as he gets treed before 8:30 on your stop watch.

We did this twice last nite and it worked out nicely....You have to give credit where credit is due. If the dogs split treed you HAVE to give them credit for the work they did.

Posted by T Felderman on 10-17-2009 02:56 PM:

Allen would you make a ruling. I just may have some green backs riding on this. Remember we knew the exact time dog B treed.

Posted by Ricochet17 on 10-17-2009 02:58 PM:

Spectating is like a back seat driver right Felderman?

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Posted by on 10-17-2009 03:31 PM:

TF, just tell me one thing. When dog B was treed, did the judge put him on the card for 125 or 75? That makes all the difference. You need to answer that question before anyone can answer the other question.

Posted by jculler8 on 10-17-2009 03:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by larrypoe
unless your dogs are OBVIOUSLY split, theres no way in heck Im starting seperate times.

you would have to keep track of each and every time each and every dog treed during the entire hunt, plus handle your own.

Not happening. Not in a cast Im judging. Not.Zip.Zilch. (did I mention aint gonna do it unless its obvious?)

You want do do it yourself, your welcome to. but if its on the same tree as the first dog, your taking a big fat minuse. Shouldnt even let you do that, splits are a judges call. But press the issue and Ill sure let ya roll the dice. You better be sure.

I guess we would've been a REAL MESS had you been judging our cast at the ZONES this year... we walked to 12 splits and not once was there more than 1 dog on a tree.

If you can't do simple math in your head, you shouldn't be carrying the card!

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