UKC Forums - Some Tailgate BS'ing

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Posted by Rob Ellett on 10-09-2009 11:08 PM:

You must misunderstand what I'm saying

I am not talking about entitlement or socialism, I am talking about when your children or grandchildren or an of your loved ones drive across a bridge and possibility of it collapsing and killing them.
Our ability to transfer goods to market faster and cheaper to make business owner better able to make a profit .
I'm taking about about how without replacing our aged infrastructure we will with out a doubt be a third world country looking for hand outs from country's that are better off than ourselves.

Posted by coldtrail on 10-09-2009 11:35 PM:

What I'm saying is infrastructure makes the country the same way a uniform make a football team.

Infrastructure is nice but its not why we have been the greatest nation in history. Its not why people have immigrated by the millions to our country, its the hope of something better.

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Posted by Rob Ellett on 10-09-2009 11:42 PM:

I disagree

Infrastructure is not nice it is essential for the transportation of raw goods to manufactures and processed goods to market as well as everyday transportation to complete both of these.
The dependable and working condition of our power grid is not nice it is vital.
The ability to turn on your water and know it is safe to drink is not only nice but essential .

Posted by john nannemann on 10-09-2009 11:45 PM:

Re: Re: Coldtrail

quote:
Originally posted by coldtrail
Soi if we have nice trains and bridges we can be like france?????????? or China?????? Who the hell wants that?????????

we have become a nation of entitlement on the verge of socialism. We want the government to discipline and educate or kids, take care of our retirement, provide for the elderly. What made this country great was individualism, we take care of our selves and our own.

I want to take care of my family and myself and not depend on a government handout and its all fear?????????? We need to get back to what made us unique and great but I fear its too late. I don't think it bridges and trains.

yes! except i think we're far past the "verge".

we have come to believe we are "entitled" to what throughout the history of man could only be considered luxuries. we have "dis-incentivized" achievement for "arbitrary" outcomes. and we are making "funny money" to "pay"( lol lol) for it.

Posted by Lee Stocking on 10-09-2009 11:56 PM:

Why do we need Infrastructure if we dont manufacture?

Rob I dont know what exactly what the solution is. I do think that with enough people that think alike, and enough persistance can create change. I am more of a loaner, not so much of a leader and will hold off on saying what I think will work. But we the people need to band together.

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Posted by john nannemann on 10-09-2009 11:56 PM:

Re: I disagree

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Ellett
Infrastructure is not nice it is essential for the transportation of raw goods to manufactures and processed goods to market as well as everyday transportation to complete both of these.
The dependable and working condition of our power grid is not nice it is vital.
The ability to turn on your water and know it is safe to drink is not only nice but essential .

there is NO INCENTIVE for capital to seek a return from taking on risk, there is only a risk to the value of the capital itself. the threat of government takeover and/or virtual takeover via regulation is SCARING capital into unproductive things like GOLD.

WE ARE DEALING WITH STATIST COLLECTIVISTS. do not kid yourself into thinking otherwise. CAPITAL PRESERVATION and risk pursuit by capital for gains historically have seldom went had in hand on the timeline, if you know what i mean.

we "assume" those things you stated to be "essential", but they are actually luxuries that were provided by the beautiful thing we once called "capitalism". without "capitalism", we may eventually get to think about them as luxury again. think diminishing tax base.

Posted by coldtrail on 10-10-2009 12:04 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Coldtrail

quote:
Originally posted by john nannemann
yes! except i think we're far past the "verge".

we have come to believe we are "entitled" to what throughout the history of man could only be considered luxuries. we have "dis-incentivized" achievement for "arbitrary" outcomes. and we are making "funny money" to "pay"( lol lol) for it.

me too, whats sad is most thought they were in a free capitalistic society the the whole time.

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Posted by JEFFHESTER on 10-10-2009 12:04 AM:

Re: Re: Remeber what happened to Rome

quote:
Originally posted by john nannemann
remember rome? this is a recurring theme of mine.

how about overspending and using "money" devaluation as the means of financing it all. WE ARE BROKE- we cannot continue to finance pie in the sky statist dreams. our children will hate us in the end as i hold my grandparents responsible for the likes of fdr.

how you like that discussion?

John.... You forgot to mention that Rome was polluted with homosexuals. I will say one thing for Obama he sure can make a great 'pie in the sky' speech.
Jeff

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Posted by Rob Ellett on 10-10-2009 12:13 AM:

Re: Re: I disagree

quote:
Originally posted by john nannemann
there is NO INCENTIVE for capital to seek a return from taking on risk, there is only a risk to the value of the capital itself. the threat of government takeover and/or virtual takeover via regulation is SCARING capital into unproductive things like GOLD.

WE ARE DEALING WITH STATIST COLLECTIVISTS. do not kid yourself into thinking otherwise. CAPITAL PRESERVATION and risk pursuit by capital for gains historically have seldom went had in hand on the timeline, if you know what i mean.

we "assume" those things you stated to be "essential", but they are actually luxuries that were provided by the beautiful thing we once called "capitalism". without "capitalism", we may eventually get to think about them as luxury again. think diminishing tax base.

John I don't know how I have came across, but you can take this to the bank, I have always tried to vote in the direction that will ensure my financial means.
Being that I know that when I work it is because someone or a group with deep capital are laying out the money for the project not to better society but to make money.
And I wish everyone else could also understand that you cant tax the rich just because they have some extra.
They will put that money to work if they feel a profit and that is what grows a nation.
Yes I know money makes money and that right now money is scared to death.
And yes Oppenheimer Gold & Sp Mn has been pretty good to me.

Posted by rance56 on 10-10-2009 01:18 AM:

imo, i think infrastrcute is low down on the totum pole of this countries pressing problems. i know alot of the stimulus should eventually go to these areas, and the govt is subsidizing a ton of build america bonds that should also help out the state and local municipalities with these type of projects. im certainly not smart enough or informed enough to know the answers, but if i had to say anything it would be:

if you want to change your country's direction and politics, act locally, that is really where you can make a difference and it would trickle up. its amazing how many people dont even know who their city mayor is.

if you want to improve your station in life, continuosly improve your skill set and qualifications. its all about where your priorities are at. that being said, a person of low intelligence is going to have a very hard time to move up at no fault of their own.

i do know that governement intervention and the govt picking winning companies and industries surely isnt the answer.

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Posted by john nannemann on 10-10-2009 07:18 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
i do know that governement intervention and the govt picking winning companies and industries surely isnt the answer.

i do know this also, i hope more are learning it daily. but it is causing much pain to many learning this lesson.

the arrogance of arbitrary power ends in the humbling effects of unintended consequences.

Posted by coldtrail on 10-10-2009 12:38 PM:

They have us brainwashed into thinking government spending can stimulate the economy and reverse a downturn. It may help in some instances but if it does it wasn't a long term problem anyway. All stimulus is is a fancy way of the governement distributing the wealth. WWII got us out of the great depression,not Roosevelt. And WWII wouldn't have done it if we had not WON the war. We seem to have forgot the significance of winning and losing wars.

Can anyone show me where stimulus spending is addressed in the constitution???????????????? Can anyone even twist it and make it constitutionally sound?????????????

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Posted by Rob Ellett on 10-10-2009 04:21 PM:

I'm pretty sure that

I didnt advocate government spending or stimulus packages in any of my previous posts on this subject.
I did how ever bring up the subject that the stimulus spending -which has already being allocated-has not been spent wisely or at all.
Believe me, I am not for this Recovery Package that in its self isn't what this post was/is about.
This post is about the terrible state of our infrastructure which many have been drilled to think is only roads and bridges.not true. Our infrastructure is a vast system that also includes the,power grid,water supply.waste water. storm water, levees.dams.
You can hate government spending all you want ,but you can not deny that you are the users of at least on or more parts of the infrastructure system. As a user you have obligations to the up keep and replacement of said systems.
And as far as WWII being the reason we recovered from the Depression, isn't entirely true it was mainly time and the reconverted wartime factories and their abilities to move finished goods on or new state of art interstate system(infrastructure).
Yes winning that war did bring us the spoils, we prospered because our roads,bridges,factories,schools(infrastructure) wasn't damage. Our society had been restricted to wartime rationing and now these restrictions were lifted.
Our factories were reconverted and we were set up as the work sop of the world, much as China has been.
Unemployment right after the war (soldiers returning) nearly continued the Depression if not for our new position as world work shop turning out goods badly needed to repair and replace in war ravage ares of Europe and Japan. Remember thats were the MADE IN THE USA slogan originally came from and was the stamp of quality products made with pride by American citizens.
With that said that is what lifted us out of The Great Depression not just the simple fact that we won the war. But I whole heartedly agree that no military engagement since then has been fought with the goal of victory at all. Instead it has been used for political and economic profits.
But that doesn't address the original question, How do we correct our current situation?

Posted by john nannemann on 10-10-2009 04:39 PM:

Re: I'm pretty sure that

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Ellett
I didnt advocate government spending or stimulus packages in any of my previous posts on this subject.
I did how ever bring up the subject that the stimulus spending -which has already being allocated-has not been spent wisely or at all.
Believe me, I am not for this Recovery Package that in its self isn't what this post was/is about.
This post is about the terrible state of our infrastructure which many have been drilled to think is only roads and bridges.not true. Our infrastructure is a vast system that also includes the,power grid,water supply.waste water. storm water, levees.dams.
You can hate government spending all you want ,but you can not deny that you are the users of at least on or more parts of the infrastructure system. As a user you have obligations to the up keep and replacement of said systems.
And as far as WWII being the reason we recovered from the Depression, isn't entirely true it was mainly time and the reconverted wartime factories and their abilities to move finished goods on or new state of art interstate system(infrastructure).
Yes winning that war did bring us the spoils, we prospered because our roads,bridges,factories,schools(infrastructure) wasn't damage. Our society had been restricted to wartime rationing and now these restrictions were lifted.
Our factories were reconverted and we were set up as the work sop of the world, much as China has been.
Unemployment right after the war (soldiers returning) nearly continued the Depression if not for our new position as world work shop turning out goods badly needed to repair and replace in war ravage ares of Europe and Japan. Remember thats were the MADE IN THE USA slogan originally came from and was the stamp of quality products made with pride by American citizens.
With that said that is what lifted us out of The Great Depression not just the simple fact that we won the war. But I whole heartedly agree that no military engagement since then has been fought with the goal of victory at all. Instead it has been used for political and economic profits.
But that doesn't address the original question, How do we correct our current situation?

rob, i don't think anybodies "on you" dude. i think what coldtrail and myself are trying to say is:

which came first, the chicken, or the egg?

or

you can't have your cake and eat it to.

we don't need infrastructure if we're not doing any business. we can't pay for (tax base) infrastructure if we're not doing any business. have you ever been to rome? i have and seen the "ruins" with my own eyes. they didn't NEED all the vast road system and all the aquaduct system at the end of it. those things were LUXURIES that were only supported by a thriving trade system and more or less "voluntary" payment of taxes to support them. i say voluntary, because things can always be hidden or there can be a revolt. they(the romans in rome) had bleed the hinderlands and the thing broke up into the old area( the west) and the new area(Byzantium). WE are on this path.

remember the lessons of Ecclesiastes: what goes around, comes around.

Posted by coldtrail on 10-10-2009 05:07 PM:

Cut capital gains in half on american companies that produce products on american soil. This will give the power to the people. Thats why our government would never go for it.

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Posted by john nannemann on 10-10-2009 05:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by coldtrail
Cut capital gains in half on american companies that produce products on american soil. This will give the power to the people. Thats why our government would never go for it.

this is so simple a truth that you have to wonder if those that "go against" it are intentionally subversive.

Posted by otown on 10-10-2009 06:18 PM:

I went through central Iowa a few weeks ago , lots of bridge replacement and repair going on . Went to Texas 3 weeks ago almost a one lane trip for 800 miles , lots of interstate construction . airline industry took over the rail industry for travel many years ago , we already have a well established system there. look at Am track , not popular . I dont see train travel ever being able to replace air travel in this want it now society. JMO

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Posted by ky hillbilly on 10-10-2009 07:16 PM:

Re: 89 views and only one man took the time to add his thoughts

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Ellett
What is it folks do you not care or are you waiting for someone to come take your hand and lead you into the promised land?

I think this is the same crap,just a different day.No ONE is going to do anything, only talk. Not trying to heat you up, just fact.

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Posted by rance56 on 10-10-2009 09:14 PM:

Rob,

wasnt alluding to you with my comments, sorry if it came off that way. just dont agree with alot of the ways the govt is going about things.

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Posted by Rob Ellett on 10-11-2009 12:04 AM:

Guys I didnt think you had

I was just clarifying my position is all.
And I am also I big believer that a slash in capital gains would be a very good start.
No, John I never got to Rome , just Germany, France, Austria,Sweden and Spain.
I think that like the egg and chicken argument that infrastructure replacement/repair would be the chicken, with increased employment, wage earning increased. and consumer spending being the egg.
I guess it's just what side of the fence your looking from to how green the grass is,lol. Or if it needs mowed.

Posted by john nannemann on 10-11-2009 06:58 AM:

Re: Guys I didnt think you had

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Ellett
I was just clarifying my position is all.
And I am also I big believer that a slash in capital gains would be a very good start.
No, John I never got to Rome , just Germany, France, Austria,Sweden and Spain.
I think that like the egg and chicken argument that infrastructure replacement/repair would be the chicken, with increased employment, wage earning increased. and consumer spending being the egg.
I guess it's just what side of the fence your looking from to how green the grass is,lol. Or if it needs mowed.

to me, the chicken AND the egg is commerce. commerce is the only reason for the need for infrastructure AND the only source of tax revenue to pay for it.

after the "fall" of rome came the "dark ages". localized tyrants and feudal lords ruling progressively smaller areas of influence. not "good times" for the common man. commerce became more and more localized, as did the want or need for infrastructure. this, i fear, is the path we've chosen. i may not live for it, but i fear my grandchildren may.

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