UKC Forums - how should this be handled at a hunt?

Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
Show all 52 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- how should this be handled at a hunt? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=304276)

Posted by Jack Bingham on 10-06-2009 04:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
Come on guys just because it says to verify at the end of the sentence don't mean you do it last.

thats why it is at the end of the sentence judge must verify the dog is on a tree after the 5 is up then they are gone.

__________________
JACK BINGHAM
MOSQUITO CREEK REDBONES
641-750-4457

A screw up on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

HOME OF

GRNitech PKC Platinum CH PR Mosquito Creek Danno's Buggs 2018 American Redbone Champion. 2019 World Champion Female. 2020 PURINA NATIONALS CH.

GRNITE CH Mosquito Creek Hank 2020 and 2022 top 100

Platinum CH GRNITE CH Jersey Girl 2020 Top 100

R.I.P.
GRNitech PKC CH GRCH Awesome Mosquito Crk. Lick 2016 World Champion Redbone Female

Look us up on Facebook: Mosquito Creek Redbones

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-06-2009 04:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
thats why it is at the end of the sentence judge must verify the dog is on a tree after the 5 is up then they are gone.

I am sorry I will never see it that way. Your assuming that, it don't say that. It does not say about what order you have to follow the rules. Maybe they should make that a rule!! LOL

Posted by cbcoonskinner on 10-06-2009 04:28 PM:

What about failing to hunt for 15 minutes could that come into play?

__________________
Al Brobst
po box 71
Wheeling,Mo 64688
Home of:
Red Eagle Chief

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-06-2009 04:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
Cornbelt rule 5a, dog must finish track.

Rule 5a says you would circle those strike points not minus them. Also it makes no mention of being told to handle your dog by the judge.

__________________
Kyle Hough

Iowa State Coon Hunters Website: www.iowacoonhunters.com
ISCHA on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/IowaStateCoonHunters

Posted by T Felderman on 10-06-2009 04:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Todd, a judge doesn't have to "know" the dog is on a tree, the judge just has to believe the dog is barking treed to put the stationary on. Then, if the 6 catches the dog, the judge must visually confirm that the dog is in fact on a tree before he can scratch. That is the rule.

But I agree with everything else you said.

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-06-2009 04:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
I am sorry I will never see it that way. Your assuming that, it don't say that. It does not say about what order you have to follow the rules. Maybe they should make that a rule!! LOL

Well when you put the stationary on a dog you are saying the dog is treed and the same rules apply as if he was declared treed. So rule 11 would still apply (After five minutes, first dog's tree may be checked). That is why you would wait until the 5 is up to verify.

__________________
Kyle Hough

Iowa State Coon Hunters Website: www.iowacoonhunters.com
ISCHA on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/IowaStateCoonHunters

Posted by on 10-06-2009 04:49 PM:

Todd, 5(a) is a rule listed under "Circle and Deleted Points" There is no mention of minus points anywhere in that rule. How do you get minus points out of anthing in rule 5?
You don't understand most of the rules you quote. You have no understsanding at all of how 6(q) applies. And I'm sure I can't make you understand them so I won't waste my time trying.

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-06-2009 04:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
The dog can not be put on stationary, unless judge know he's on a tree. Rule 6q.

Todd think about that. So youre saying that if a dog is 400 yards throught the country treeing (sounds treed anyways) that you as the judge must first walk that 400 yards to verify that the dog is infact on a tree before starting the stationary rule? I think not

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-06-2009 04:58 PM:

Jim, I am wrong on rule 5. Rule 6 lets turn it around I agree before you can scratch the dog is has to tree for the 5 and be on a tree. But what says I have to verify after the 5. Nothing.

Posted by Slough on 10-06-2009 05:02 PM:

Ok if I am reading Todd's interpetation right. Before I can put the stationary rule on a dog, I have got to go and see him on the tree. If I do that, dont you think the handler is going to be sure and tree his dog before the stationary 5 is up.

__________________
James Lawrence, Big Slough Kennels

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-06-2009 05:03 PM:

Look you guys you don't read any better than I do. I said more than likely you would put the stationary on the dog, before you verify. But if he was 50 feet away from me I would verify then. So would all of you.

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-06-2009 05:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
Look you guys you don't read any better than I do. I said more than likely you would put the stationary on the dog, before you verify. But if he was 50 feet away from me I would verify then. So would all of you.

__________________
Kyle Hough

Iowa State Coon Hunters Website: www.iowacoonhunters.com
ISCHA on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/IowaStateCoonHunters

Posted by Scratch on 10-06-2009 05:14 PM:

todd miller. i hope they don't let you judge you have a lot to learn

Posted by David McKee on 10-06-2009 05:15 PM:

Read Allen's interpretation, this is what we are to go by. This one sentence answers your question as to when to go to the tree....

When the five is up, the cast will proceed to that tree.

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Rule 6(q) Explained
All those years that we struggled with the cumbersome interpretation of how to handle the situations where dogs were treeing and the handlers had no intentions of declaring them treed. 6(q) is a basic and necessary requirement in accurately scoring hounds for their work on a nite hunt cast.
The rule reads as follows:
6. Dogs will be scratched
(q) if a handler fails to declare treed a dog obviously treeing (Judge’s decision) for a period of five minutes. Dog may be declared treed while the five is running but not after the five has expired. Judge must verify dog to be at a tree before it can be scratched.
Let’s break it down into its most basic components. First, the dog must obviously be treeing. That doesn’t mean tapping trees or trying to settle. The right to tree a dog should rest with the handler until it becomes obvious that the handler has no intention of treeing a dog that is treeing solid. This is the Judge’s decision.
Once 6(q) is applied, the dog in question must tree for five minutes. Judge this as you would if the dog had been declared treed.
• If you hear the dog bark off the tree, then the five is broken.
• If two minutes gets him, the five is broken.
• If another dog in the cast comes in and is declared treed, the five is broken
No penalty is assessed. The application of 6(q) is simply ended in each of the situations described above.
At any time while the five is running in accordance with 6(q), a handler may elect to declare the dog treed. If the dog is declared treed, 6(q) is ended and you would start a new five minutes on the dog just as you would any time a dog is declared treed. In the event where another dog in the cast is declared treed on that same tree, 6(q) would also be ended. Start the five on the dog that was declared treed and normal tree rules are applied.
Okay, let’s say a handler still refuses to tree the dog and the five minutes in accordance with 6(q) is running. When the five is up, the cast will proceed to that tree. If on the way in to the tree, the handler asks to declare the dog treed and the five is up, that request must be denied. The dog cannot be declared treed (at that particular tree) after the five minutes of 6(q) has expired. Also, the dog must be seen on a tree before it can be scratched. Not in a hole, bulldoze pile, old barn, or any other place of refuge. The thinking here is that sometimes those tree barks may sound different enough to the handler of the dog that they know the dog is not “right”. Someone who does not know the dog may assume the dog is treed solid, when the truth may be he is not on a tree at all. That’s why the dog must be seen on a tree. When you get in there and the dog is on a tree, then the dog is scratched. If you arrive to find the dog trailing around or on a fence or something, back on out and let the dog work. There would be no penalty. If the dog is in a hole or place of refuge the dog may be handled without being declared treed in accordance with rule 5(a).
It’s the handler’s responsibility to tell the Judge when the dog strikes and when the dog trees. Competition events are about scoring dogs and that means the good, bad and indifferent. Any opportunity to cut down on the number of “games” being played in between should be pursued. 6(q) is one of those opportunities.
-Allen Gingerich
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

__________________
Proud to be a coonhunter, even prouder to be a Christian !

www.sccoonhunters.com

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-06-2009 05:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Slough
Ok if I am reading Todd's interpetation right. Before I can put the stationary rule on a dog, I have got to go and see him on the tree. If I do that, dont you think the handler is going to be sure and tree his dog before the stationary 5 is up.

I agree with you James, The question comes down to the handler don't know his dog or the dog is not right. That brings up something else now, your gonna force the handler to do something. Sure he's gonna tree his dog. What if there is a coon there ? What if there is no coon? what if he really is on a fence? From what I have seen in the past after the stationary has been put on a hound usually the handler trees the dog.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 10-06-2009 05:22 PM:

something sounds real fishy about the stationary thing as mentioned. my question would be, how could you put a stationary on a dog, that by the post, was moving up and down the fence? last time i looked, stationary meant not moving. if there is moving, the rule does not apply. The dog on the fence should not have been handled at all, and he would have kept his strike points, and went onsomewhere, or then came to tree, once he figured how the other dog crossed the fence, and been minsued for coming into a tree that was plused. The judge should never have said to handle the dog. I guess if you think about things, the judge kinda messed up the dog. the handler should have questioned the judge, and if still ordered to do so, placed a question on the card, handled the dog, and then went to the MOH, which in turn, should have corrected the judge, the card, and sent them hunting again...maybe with a new judge.

__________________
Robert " Rock" Johnson

Johnson Creek Kennels
home of:
UKC Grand Nite Champion "PR" Yadkin River Addkis. Deceased 12/11/2016 RIP

2009/2010/2011/2012 AKC GA. State Leader and Supreme Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

2010 ACHA Georgia State Champion Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

PKC Champion Yadkin River Addkis

Bright Eye Lights

Treeing Walkers

912-663-5287 cell (perfered)

Posted by Todd Miller on 10-06-2009 05:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by David McKee
Read Allen's interpretation, this is what we are to go by. This one sentence answers your question as to when to go to the tree....

When the five is up, the cast will proceed to that tree.

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Rule 6(q) Explained
All those years that we struggled with the cumbersome interpretation of how to handle the situations where dogs were treeing and the handlers had no intentions of declaring them treed. 6(q) is a basic and necessary requirement in accurately scoring hounds for their work on a nite hunt cast.
The rule reads as follows:
6. Dogs will be scratched
(q) if a handler fails to declare treed a dog obviously treeing (Judge’s decision) for a period of five minutes. Dog may be declared treed while the five is running but not after the five has expired. Judge must verify dog to be at a tree before it can be scratched.
Let’s break it down into its most basic components. First, the dog must obviously be treeing. That doesn’t mean tapping trees or trying to settle. The right to tree a dog should rest with the handler until it becomes obvious that the handler has no intention of treeing a dog that is treeing solid. This is the Judge’s decision.
Once 6(q) is applied, the dog in question must tree for five minutes. Judge this as you would if the dog had been declared treed.
• If you hear the dog bark off the tree, then the five is broken.
• If two minutes gets him, the five is broken.
• If another dog in the cast comes in and is declared treed, the five is broken
No penalty is assessed. The application of 6(q) is simply ended in each of the situations described above.
At any time while the five is running in accordance with 6(q), a handler may elect to declare the dog treed. If the dog is declared treed, 6(q) is ended and you would start a new five minutes on the dog just as you would any time a dog is declared treed. In the event where another dog in the cast is declared treed on that same tree, 6(q) would also be ended. Start the five on the dog that was declared treed and normal tree rules are applied.
Okay, let’s say a handler still refuses to tree the dog and the five minutes in accordance with 6(q) is running. When the five is up, the cast will proceed to that tree. If on the way in to the tree, the handler asks to declare the dog treed and the five is up, that request must be denied. The dog cannot be declared treed (at that particular tree) after the five minutes of 6(q) has expired. Also, the dog must be seen on a tree before it can be scratched. Not in a hole, bulldoze pile, old barn, or any other place of refuge. The thinking here is that sometimes those tree barks may sound different enough to the handler of the dog that they know the dog is not “right”. Someone who does not know the dog may assume the dog is treed solid, when the truth may be he is not on a tree at all. That’s why the dog must be seen on a tree. When you get in there and the dog is on a tree, then the dog is scratched. If you arrive to find the dog trailing around or on a fence or something, back on out and let the dog work. There would be no penalty. If the dog is in a hole or place of refuge the dog may be handled without being declared treed in accordance with rule 5(a).
It’s the handler’s responsibility to tell the Judge when the dog strikes and when the dog trees. Competition events are about scoring dogs and that means the good, bad and indifferent. Any opportunity to cut down on the number of “games” being played in between should be pursued. 6(q) is one of those opportunities.
-Allen Gingerich
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay If I after apply all of this to rule 6q, Then I am sorry for my posts. Because I am wrong. I did not realize there was a book for every rule, on the back of the score card.

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-06-2009 05:44 PM:

The real question is that no one seems to have an answer for is this...... what should happen to the dogs strike points if he is ordered to handle his dog by the judge? Maybe the judge made a mistake and realizes it after some discussion.... but the dog is handled. Now what happens to those strike points?

IMO 5(f) would be the most appropriate rule to use. It addresses what to do with strike points when ordered by judge to handle your dog. I would argue that ect. encompasses a judges mistake.

__________________
Kyle Hough

Iowa State Coon Hunters Website: www.iowacoonhunters.com
ISCHA on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/IowaStateCoonHunters

Posted by on 10-06-2009 05:55 PM:

Cornbelt, you are looking for a rule that tells you what to do when the judge screws up. There is no such rule.

Posted by josh on 10-06-2009 06:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Cornbelt, you are looking for a rule that tells you what to do when the judge screws up. There is no such rule.

lol....by the looks of this thread, maybe we need one.

Posted by larrypoe on 10-06-2009 06:27 PM:

The first mistake was ordering dog A handled. He should have be left alone.

The stationary rule doesnt apply. If it was used when it ran out and the dog was found to be on a fence, the cast would back away.

After dog b had been scored, the cast would of walked with b leashed, assuming of coarse c has been declaired treed, to dog c and scored that tree. Leaving dog a where he was.

Should he come in to the cast on the way, or anything else that changed the situation of being hung up on a fence, then scored accordingly.

The judge messed up, bottem line.

__________________
GRNTCH GRCH ROBINSONS ENGLISH LOOSER

RIP Loose

Posted by Robert Johnson on 10-06-2009 06:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by larrypoe
The first mistake was ordering dog A handled. He should have be left alone.

The stationary rule doesnt apply. If it was used when it ran out and the dog was found to be on a fence, the cast would back away.

After dog b had been scored, the cast would of walked with b leashed, assuming of coarse c has been declaired treed, to dog c and scored that tree. Leaving dog a where he was.

Should he come in to the cast on the way, or anything else that changed the situation of being hung up on a fence, then scored accordingly.

The judge messed up, bottem line.

exactly the point i was making. Todd you are thinking the dog is treed, and by no means is he treed. if he can be seen moving up and down a fence, that is not a tree, and he should have been left there for him to figure out what he wanted to do, and when 5 was up, proceed to the treed dog. i would bet that if he had not been handled, he would have made his way to the tree, for a minus, or went on his merry way to find another coon. the judge was wrong..point blank. the handler is also at fault, for not knowing the rules well enough to ?, and for handling the dog. No other way to put it, and i don't need an advisor, or rule interputation booklet to figure it out.

Posted by Jack Bingham on 10-06-2009 06:58 PM:

Boy Gary did you start the pot stirring as usuall 50-50 split on how to score the situation. The dog could not cross the fence the cast went to the tree and scored the coon. luckily the judgement call would not have changed the outcome.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-06-2009 07:32 PM:

It was the handlers error just as much as the judge. He should had questioned the handeling of the dog. First rule (know the rules or pay the price). I am learning more about the rules reading these post than I do in the book. It is easier to learn when you see it applyed. But if me not knowing the rules bites me in the tail that is my falt. I would take the minuse points and go on.

__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

Posted by Cornbelt on 10-06-2009 09:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Cornbelt, you are looking for a rule that tells you what to do when the judge screws up. There is no such rule.

Actually, after giving this some more thought, there is a rule that tells you what to do when the judge screws up. If the handler thinks the judge screwed up he should question it...... if he doesn't then I would think the call would stand.

In this situation I would say it was messed up but handled correctly. No the dog should not have been handled, but the handler could/should have questioned the call. By not questioning it you are agreeing with it, or at least giving up the right to protest it.

It was a unique situation where neither the judge or handler were sure how to handle it. A ruling was made and the cast moved on like it should have. Not sure what else you could do. In this case I think both guys were ok with that, but just wanted to know for sure how it should be handled going forward.

__________________
Kyle Hough

Iowa State Coon Hunters Website: www.iowacoonhunters.com
ISCHA on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/IowaStateCoonHunters

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:35 PM.

Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
Show all 52 posts from this thread on one page