UKC Forums - Wow....would this ever change the game!

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-- Wow....would this ever change the game! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=303294)

Posted by Scott Lindeman on 10-01-2009 02:16 AM:

guys last time i check dogs are NOT carring Timexs with them how do they know the five is up

Posted by john nannemann on 10-01-2009 02:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by larrypoe
I have to dissagree with you on a couple points. First, coondogs were not bred TO BE pack dogs. They were bred FROM pack dogs (running dogs). Packing (me too) is a fall back to those running dogs.

The first "tree" dogs were independant enough to leave the pack to tree game instead of running it all night, as well as independant enough to stay there while the others were running. They sure didnt spend all night seeing what the other dogs were up to.

From the beginning it was 1 or 2 dogs and a hunter catching fur.
The 'pack' came in with night hunts when it was decided for 4 dogs to hunt agianst each other. Not with each other AGIANST each other. Having quick strike and tree dogs came with the hunts, having dogs that had the meat was the main priority before that.

Either way the goal has always been to have the dog that trees the most coons.

honestly larry, i know you been around a while like myself. 20-25 yrs. ago it was a "rare as hen's teeth" to find a 100% pull pressure tree dog, they were out there but not day to day. when you drew one it was something to talk about. now we have hounds scattered all over the woods and more ruff tree dogs when they do get in company. and track puddlers that will eventually get treed by themselves and may then have a coon, but they PUDDLED the track. i want mine to finish what they start, with or without the other dogs, quickly as possible.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-01-2009 03:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
I dont mind em packing but DANG if its after the 5 is up..Where in the world has it been for 5 min? It evidently was not packing if it takes em that long to get there...Its a covering me to dog that cant run a coon Jim why would you not vote for the rule? What could it hurt?

Yep I would agree. If it honors a dog on track and is 5 minutes behind by the time the first dog trees it isn't a me to dog or it would be right behind the one that trees. It is a track walloring or puddleing sob and shoud be minused scratched or what ever you want to do with them BUT bring them to my house. It would be a hard choice for me to decide witch I would rather have on my hands a slow one like that or a me too dog.
I think I would rather have the me too dog though. It may be able to be trained. The other is probubley to dumb to learn if it hasn't allready. ( :

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Posted by larrypoe on 10-01-2009 03:05 AM:

John,

Sure they were rare then. The reason they were rare was because those foundation dogs, pulled from running packs, couldnt reproduce. It took years of breeding to "fix" those traits into the genetic makeup of the dogs we hunt today.

This doesnt change the fact that those dogs were in fact culls from running packs. Dogs who in spite all efforts to break them, preferred to leave the pack and tree instead of run all night.

2 other things compounded to add to that.

1) There wasnt many of them, which ment they had to be bred to running dogs to reproduce at all
2) Untill the late 1940's the three major breeds, walker,bluetick,and english, were all registered togather as English Fox and Coonhounds. This ment it was up to the individual breeder to decide were to place the enfasis, running dogs(pack) or tree dogs. Most just shot the tree dogs as "sports" and never talked about them untill the nite hunts started.

One other point. The reason most of those dogs took to treeing instead of running with the pack in the first place was because they were too SLOW to keep up. ie poor track dogs in the first place.

The slow, albet independent, ones started running critters that treed (assuming it wasnt just a natural born instinct in the first place) because of there natural desire to "catch"

the slow me too pack dogs just babbled along behind the pack. Could realy care less as long as they were close to there buddys.

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Posted by john nannemann on 10-01-2009 03:28 AM:

larry, makes sense, but i guess i still want a happy medium.lol i can't handle much of the track jacking, alone or in company.

Posted by larrypoe on 10-01-2009 03:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john nannemann
larry, makes sense, but i guess i still want a happy medium.lol i can't handle much of the track jacking, alone or in company.

Amen.

I have hunted with 2 of the worst that ever lived, and was hired to handle/hunt one of them.

Both these dogs accualy KNOCKED out a PERSON at the tree by landing on them.

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Posted by Clay Lautzenhiser on 10-01-2009 03:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Scott Lindeman
guys last time i check dogs are NOT carring Timexs with them how do they know the five is up

Come on Scott! Do you really want a dog who couldn't figure out a track for atleast five minutes to suddenly figure it out and tree with another dog? I know you better than that. If a dog can't demonstrate any better tracking ability then being five minutes behind another dog it not only needs minused but CULLED!!
I woulds vote for this rule anyday! I CAN'T STAND A ME TOO FRICKIN WANNA BE COONDOG!

PS wait a minute Scott perhaps you do prefer that kinda dog because that would explain your nickname... something about "one hit"...

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Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 03:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john nannemann
i gotta agree with this guy. i've had/ still have hounds that will split and stay put. i had one that would be by himself 80% of the time. but the best scores will come from casts that stay closer together. i like a straight up "race" myself.

i think this rule change would FAVOR a slick treeing idiot. especially with the recast rule.

You need to seriousley look at that statement. Unreal. It's the complete opposite matter of fact it has nothing to do with slick treeing one bit!! JiM was saying after 5 minutes if a dog comes into a tree it has obviously quite its track and should be minused.

Please explain to us all how that would favor a slick treeing idiot??????????????? Unreal

Posted by on 10-01-2009 03:47 PM:

Everybody obsesses about slick treeing but nobody has one! You would think all you guys with those accurate treedogs would LOVE those slick treeing idiots. I mean they can't possibly beat you. I fully support the breeding of those no-coon-treeing-monsters because I don't have to feed them and it would sure make it easier for my stuff to win.

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-01-2009 03:56 PM:

I can tell by this thread just how many folks on here have a freaking clue about coon hunting or what a coondog should do and it sure as CRAP should not honor another tree after 5.. I dont care if its slick,got 10 coons up it or 12 possums!!!!!!

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Posted by on 10-01-2009 04:23 PM:

You would think that EVERYONE could atleast agree that a dog getting there 5 minutes after the tree closes (which is actually 10 minutes after the 1st dog treed) is so late as to deserve some sort of fault. But no! Some of you will actually make excuses for it and some will even defend it. This may be a clue as to why one breed dominates competion to the point of almost being unfair and the other breeds just can't seem to catch up.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 10-01-2009 04:43 PM:

I don't care what rule they have for them in the comp. hunt but it would deserve ONE BULLET from me if it didn't get a lot better quick. ( :

Posted by SLICK50 on 10-01-2009 04:51 PM:

It only makes sense that if a dog arrives at a closed tree it should get minused on strike. Says what kind of a dog you have if you agree with it the way it is.

Or another option wold be put it in for next available position on tree and minus them. But wishing this rule change is like me wishing ukc would adapt the countdown rule. Just not going to happen for years

Posted by mleck on 10-01-2009 04:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Everybody obsesses about slick treeing but nobody has one!

I got one and he is really good at it!!!!!!!!!!! Tritronics is working to get him past this if at all possible. ruined either way!

Posted by larrypoe on 10-01-2009 05:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You would think that EVERYONE could atleast agree that a dog getting there 5 minutes after the tree closes (which is actually 10 minutes after the 1st dog treed) is so late as to deserve some sort of fault. But no! Some of you will actually make excuses for it and some will even defend it. This may be a clue as to why one breed dominates competion to the point of almost being unfair and the other breeds just can't seem to catch up.

I totaly agree with you, well except for the 1 breed domination thing

, I have ALWAYS thought it was BS for a dog to get a free pass if it came in after the cast arived, quit there track to go honor another dog, and all the other lovely little things our rules allow.

Its sure not allowed in my woods on my time. There are many many shallow graves in those same woods full of those who never learned that lesson.

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Posted by Ray&Luie on 10-01-2009 05:28 PM:

simple

Dont score the dog + or - if it is late, recast the hounds with the late dog no score

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Posted by on 10-01-2009 06:24 PM:

You're right Larry. That comment about one breed domination was completely out of line. I'm starting to feel like myself again....

Posted by larrypoe on 10-01-2009 06:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You're right Larry. That comment about one breed domination was completely out of line. I'm starting to feel like myself again....

Good to hear, lol, thought they had you on too many happy pills or something.

Kinda missed the Jim who flat called a spade a spade and who cares if it pees in someones cheerios or not.

brutal honestly. world needs more of it.

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Posted by kyle m on 10-01-2009 06:34 PM:

always

always want my dog to get by his or herself,if i turn loose 3 times i want my dog buy itse4lf at least twice. its hard to beat a dog that gets by hyimself alot. its gunnna take 100 tree eveytime he trees. and as for dogs being 10 mins late to a tree, id say if they cant cover in the first 30 or 40 seconds, the should go on, and if one of mine came in ten minutes late more than once, it would never leave the woods i was hunting in. this is exactly whats wrong with dogs, 2 much packing and me too'n.

Posted by on 10-01-2009 06:48 PM:

"A SPLENDID IDEA"

Work's for me ! The debate about whether a tree was slick & the late dog shouldn't be penalized & everything else that could come with that couldn't even be brought up.

"STRAIGHT UP MINUS" if they are there after the five regardless would be a start no doubt. I'm with the rest in regards to a dog that punch's in late all the time. Try that at work & see how long you last ? Same thing only different!

"THEN IF" we could get rid of that go ahead & yap all night rule as soon as their unsnapped along with the other I think there would be a dramatic change back to honest coondog's that pull their weight.

Wouldn't it be awsome "IF" every time a dog opened it was sounding off because of scent not because they are to slow or outa shape? Then their is that genetic/ leather end of the leash thing that come's into play as well with lack of regard for bein concerned about said lip flippin when they shouldn't be. It's amazing what ya can learn them not to do if'n a lil effort is put forth !

I started in "78" & I can tell you when you had three hour hunt's & penalized for babblin it was actually pretty rare to draw one.

Jim's rule suggestion would be one of the best rule change's in a posative direction that I can ever recall ?! That would sure dampin 'Ol "Lucky's" chance's of accomplishing much now wouldn't it ?

Me too'n,babblin idiot's,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"YOUR OUTA THERE"!!

Posted by T Felderman on 10-01-2009 07:01 PM:

Re: Wow....would this ever change the game!

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Just try to imagine a rule that minuses a dog anytime it covers a closed tree. Period! Doesn't matter if the tree is plussed, minused or circled. Dog gets there after the 5 is up, MINUS STRIKE POINTS!
I'd venture a guess that such a rule would change the outcome of half the hunts ever hunted. And i can imagine that I might hate such a rule if it ever came about but I would sure like to try it and see. And then again....maybe not.

I have a question, why worry about one that covers after the 5 is up? If you have a coon it's whipped.

Posted by on 10-01-2009 08:06 PM:

If you have a coon, it's minused now!

Posted by jay brademeyer on 10-02-2009 01:01 AM:

i say have a 2min. tree rule , were the tree is closed after 2 min.... nothing burns me up more than your dog getting in ther deep to find a coon when they aren't moving good, and gets treed with the coon and some no good sap sucker comes in there late like 4 or just under 5 and get a peice of it. when all they did is hear that dog and run over there and tree with him..some times them me 2er's will come back and bite you in the hind end... most the time they don't draw many minus either

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Posted by Scott Lindeman on 10-02-2009 01:24 AM:

Clay one thing for sure not to many time you will see that happen to me with the hound i am leading come in after the five is up i just dont remember when the last time that happen ps clay have you hit that one hit wonder yet dont think so ... so am still head of you my friend

Posted by john nannemann on 10-02-2009 02:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by SLICK50
You need to seriousley look at that statement. Unreal. It's the complete opposite matter of fact it has nothing to do with slick treeing one bit!! JiM was saying after 5 minutes if a dog comes into a tree it has obviously quite its track and should be minused.

Please explain to us all how that would favor a slick treeing idiot??????????????? Unreal

you ever been on a cast in thin coons with a sure nuff slick treeing idiot? i was a non- hunting judge(back in those days) on a night champion cast maybe 15-20 yrs. ago and drew a blue dog(semi famous ar breeders) that literally couldn't go over 50yds without locking up. i mean blowdown locking up. the other three dogs would check( obviously this was happening very soon after the turn loose) and might even show back up after we make the tree. MOST people will demand the strays be handled if they come close to the tree. it took me 4 trees to get this dog minused out. two big leafy trees first, then i make them turn loose in a small pine plantation, minused the dog out on two trees, and took the rest of the cast hunting. BUT THE OTHERS would ALREADY HAVE BEEN MINUSED OUT under some of ya'lls plans. not right.

as for myself, i normally 70-80% of the time hunt one dog at a time by myself. hard for em to me to that way.

no points is the "fairest" way all around or go to a countdown.

as yours, jmo.

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