UKC Forums - Babbling rule question?

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-- Babbling rule question? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=299667)

Posted by Rip on 09-13-2009 07:43 PM:

No, no no

A dog CAN be minused at any time if the judge believes him to be struck on the babble.

Whether it's the first 5 seconds, 5 minutes or 50 minutes. If the dog is babblin it can and SHOULD be minused.

The minute is the amount of time that dogs are ALLOWED to babble and not be struck in, but if they are babblin and struck in during the minute you can minus them immediately.

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Posted by copetreed on 09-13-2009 07:51 PM:

I am aware of that.... what I was asking was if the dog is NOT struck in during the minute but is continuously barking can that dog be minused before the minute elapses?

And if a handler does strike his dog in during the minute how would you as a judge go about distinguishing whether the dog is carrying the track out or not. (I know what I would do, just wondering what everyone else thinks.)

Posted by Rip on 09-13-2009 08:03 PM:

No, that minute is the very reason we have so many babblers now. No dog is required to be struck in during the minute. They can bark as much as they want to. BUT if they are struck they are subject to being minused just like any other time, once they are struck in they are jubject to being judged.

Until the minute expires or the dog is struck it can open as much as it wants to without repercussion.

As soon as the minute is up though the dog has 3 barks and it must be struck. The reason it is hard to minus babblers now is because by the time a minute is up they are usually in there deep enough that they could be on a track. But, if you as a judge believe they still aren't on a track but are babbling you have the right to minus them.

If at any time I think a dog is struck on the babble I will minus it immediately. No warning, I will just minus it. If the cast wants to vote they are welcome to do so, but if you hesitate then you lost your chance because the longer you hesitate the farther the dog gets in there and the more the handler that struck on the babble can try and argue he MIGHT be on a track.

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Posted by copetreed on 09-13-2009 08:19 PM:

I totally agree with you, if a dog opens up before the minute is up and is declared struck I would minus the dog. I actually had this happen to me before on a hunt, where the judge struck his dog in before the minute expired and I stated that I thought the dog was babbling. The judge quickly stated that the only way you could prove that the dog was babbling and not on track was to listen to see if the dog keeps following the track. In my mind, if there was a track there then why didn't the other three dogs open up on it. Just my opinion. I assume he wanted me to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I have never seen the "benefit of the doubt" rule in the rulebook.

Posted by Treed First on 09-13-2009 08:42 PM:

Our judge did it wrong according to what you guys are saying then. He only minused the dog once and then let him strike in with the other dogs. He was clearly babbling when he cut loose because he made a few laps around us in the field just running crazy , then lined out after the other dogs.

Just currious , where is the rule about the 1 minute grace period on the scorecard. I looked last night and couldnt find it off hand.?

And for those that say you cant know for sure a dog is babbling , jim has said it many times on here. A judge does not have to know anything at all . It is a judgement call and he can make a decision on it anyway he likes and if you dont like it , you vote and or question the call , but it is a judgement call for the judge to make.

Posted by BAWL_TRACK on 09-13-2009 08:44 PM:

cant judge a dog by what other dogs are doing

Posted by copetreed on 09-13-2009 08:50 PM:

4j - First offense failure to strike a dog on or before the third bark, after the first minute each time dog(s) is released will result in those points being awarded and minused.

Posted by patches9452 on 09-13-2009 08:54 PM:

babbling

i don,t like babblers and won,t hunt one but...i could not with a clear conscious minus a dog that struck and did not shut up till treed... i have my ideas what is happening but i would rather loose and feel good about what i done then when an wonder or have my cast member wonder if i screwed him...all dogs don,t open on track the same... i lost last night for this very reason but i slept good when i got home

Posted by Rip on 09-13-2009 08:56 PM:

I wouldn't have any trouble sleeping at all. I wouldn't minus the dog unless I really thought it was babbling.

Since I made an honest call it wouldn't bother me a bit.

That stupid minute is the worst rule ever put on paper in any sport.

Hey, I have an idea, let's make it easier to hunt babblin dogs and harder to minus them. Let's let them break the rules for a full minute each drop. That's a great idea......................

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Posted by Treed First on 09-13-2009 08:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BAWL_TRACK
cant judge a dog by what other dogs are doing

The judge can use anything he wants to use in making a judgement call. He may or may not be right , but he has to make many judgement calls during a hunt. If people dont like the judge system , then you need to find something else to do because thats the way its done in ukc hunts. I do understand what you are saying , but a decision still has to be made.

Posted by patches9452 on 09-13-2009 09:06 PM:

you,re right

and ig i can prove he done it i will and have minused them like strikeing in the minute and then no track but if they never shut up thats a whole different ball game

Posted by Treed First on 09-13-2009 09:07 PM:

How can anyone not know the dog is babbling when it was barking going down the road in the dogbox all the way from the club and then we cut loose and the dog has never shut up and then it runs crazy circles around us in an open field still barking.

I will just say this , if my dog did that I want him minused even if he does smell a coon or not. To me it is an easy judgement call to make. I agree with Rip. Minus him and send him home early.

Jim was right when he said above , you better have your war bonnet on when you minus for babbling. Guys just cannot stand it , it seems.

Posted by Treed First on 09-13-2009 09:11 PM:

pATCHES , you are right about a few dogs that can get around the babble rule by lining out and not shutting up. Those stupid dogs usually end up being grand nite champion and its sad. I would quit hunting if i had to hunt crap like that.

but this dog last night made some laps around us in the field and i think he should be penciled minus. and remember as Jim said , a judge doesnt have to prove anything , he just makes a judgement call. The call either stands , or you vote and or question the call.

Posted by patches9452 on 09-13-2009 09:14 PM:

dogs

i wasn't talking about this particular dog i was talking in general... but the judge to my way of thinking is to judge the rules... if a judgement call has to be made it should be done without the benefit of a doubt

Posted by Treed First on 09-13-2009 09:23 PM:

Re: dogs

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
i wasn't talking about this particular dog i was talking in general... but the judge to my way of thinking is to judge the rules... if a judgement call has to be made it should be done without the benefit of a doubt

i understand what you are trying to say patches. But a judge has to decide alot of things based on experiance and plus or minus points hangs in the balance.

The dog in my cast will very likely make a grand nite champion by getting away with that babbling crap in other cast in the future. But at least last nite he didnt win because the judge stood his ground and minused him. I am glad he had the backbone to do what he thought was right.

Posted by Dbradbury3 on 09-13-2009 09:31 PM:

IF THE DOG IS TRAILING AND NEVER MISSES A BARK AND ENDS OF GETTING TREED AND HAS A COON , YOU CAN NOT MINUS DOG A FOR BABBLING , AND IF YOU DO THEN YOU MUST HAVE PUT YOUR DANG NOSE TO THE GROUND AND SAID NOPE I SMELL IT THERE IS NO COON TRACK THERE, YOU CAN NOT MINUS A

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Posted by Rip on 09-13-2009 10:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dbradbury3
IF THE DOG IS TRAILING AND NEVER MISSES A BARK AND ENDS OF GETTING TREED AND HAS A COON , YOU CAN NOT MINUS DOG A FOR BABBLING , AND IF YOU DO THEN YOU MUST HAVE PUT YOUR DANG NOSE TO THE GROUND AND SAID NOPE I SMELL IT THERE IS NO COON TRACK THERE, YOU CAN NOT MINUS A

Absolutely positively CAN, HAVE, and WILL AGAIN.

If the dog is babblin it's babblin whether it shuts up or not don't make one hill of beans difference to me if I believe they are babblin they are gettin minused. I have never had that call overturned either. I might one day but as of yet the owner of the babbler never won the vote.

If you don't like bein minused for babblin then don't bring a babbler to the hunts.

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Posted by BAWL_TRACK on 09-13-2009 11:02 PM:

well thats commen sense that the handler hasnt won a vote yet cause the others dont wont him win lol

Posted by Rip on 09-14-2009 12:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BAWL_TRACK
well thats commen sense that the handler hasnt won a vote yet cause the others dont wont him win lol

Well no, I don't vote based on how I need it to go to win.

I vote on what went on and how the rules are written, whether it helps or hurts my dog, just like I will show you your coon even if it beats me if I find it.

Plenty of others feel that way too.

The reason the ones I minused for babblin stuck is cause they were babblin.

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Posted by Todd Miller on 09-14-2009 12:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by copetreed
I totally agree with you, if a dog opens up before the minute is up and is declared struck I would minus the dog. I actually had this happen to me before on a hunt, where the judge struck his dog in before the minute expired and I stated that I thought the dog was babbling. The judge quickly stated that the only way you could prove that the dog was babbling and not on track was to listen to see if the dog keeps following the track. In my mind, if there was a track there then why didn't the other three dogs open up on it. Just my opinion. I assume he wanted me to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I have never seen the "benefit of the doubt" rule in the rulebook.

If my hound strikes before that minute is up he or she is getting struck in. I will play the eight minute rule out. Unless there is no track evident. what you are saying in this paragraph is that a dog opens in the 1st minute he or she is babbling. Thats not true at all.

Posted by Todd Miller on 09-14-2009 12:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dbradbury3
IF THE DOG IS TRAILING AND NEVER MISSES A BARK AND ENDS OF GETTING TREED AND HAS A COON , YOU CAN NOT MINUS DOG A FOR BABBLING , AND IF YOU DO THEN YOU MUST HAVE PUT YOUR DANG NOSE TO THE GROUND AND SAID NOPE I SMELL IT THERE IS NO COON TRACK THERE, YOU CAN NOT MINUS A

Well put! Its hard to get rid of them unless they are really bad at it.

Posted by truebluefordman on 09-14-2009 01:07 AM:

it will be a cold day he## before you minus my dog if it is barking and moveing around and works it's out then the other dogs open up . not all dogs smell the same . now if it went a strait line opening up every breath yes then i would say babbleing but working around in a field no way

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Posted by copetreed on 09-14-2009 01:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Miller
If my hound strikes before that minute is up he or she is getting struck in. I will play the eight minute rule out. Unless there is no track evident. what you are saying in this paragraph is that a dog opens in the 1st minute he or she is babbling. Thats not true at all.

I didn't mean for it to sound that way because I have had dogs strike and tree within a minute while pleasure hunting. But to follow the rules if a dog opens before the minute elapses then it must be obvious that a dog is running track. How are you as a handler going to prove to a judge that your dog is running a track and not babbling? If I were the judge and you struck your dog in before the minute elapses and just "tried to play the eight minute rule out" then you would be minused. If your dog was really on track then wouldn't be trying to rely on the eight minute rule. If you don't like it don't get mad at me get mad at the rule. If rules are not carried out then they are just suggestions, not rules.

Posted by Treed First on 09-14-2009 01:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by truebluefordman
it will be a cold day he## before you minus my dog if it is barking and moveing around and works it's out then the other dogs open up . not all dogs smell the same . now if it went a strait line opening up every breath yes then i would say babbleing but working around in a field no way

I guess a blizard just hit in hell then. Because this dog was babbling around in a field. Anyone that has coonhunted more than once could plainly see he wasnt running a track and he got minused for it.

Posted by Treed First on 09-14-2009 01:36 AM:

This post just amazes me that so many people fail to understand the role of a judge and the babble rule.

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