UKC Forums - The truth about cross breeding

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- The truth about cross breeding (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=298766)

Posted by Buckshot on 09-09-2009 05:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mjflores

The UKC is a purebred registry period...what do people not understand about that??

They allow single registration with crossbreed dogs already............as long as the dog meets breed requirements of the breed it wants to single register to and can pass the hunt requirement, it's single registered.

Dog could be part doberman, part, rottweiler, and part B&T -- as long as it meets the B&Tsingle register requirements, it's now considered a B&T coonhound with full breeding rights.

So much for a pure registery, huh?

Can't be a true pure dog registry if they single register a heinz 57 dog that can meet breed requirements and pass a hunt test to become a recognized breed.

With a cross-breed program, the breed associations can stop single registering ---- they can do sorta like PKC -- Full blooded and Crossbreeds.

Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 05:05 PM:

Guys, obviouslly my thinking is backwards on this.

Nobody seems to notice the times I have mentioned that I do not own one, do not plan on owning one, and will never actually intentionally make a crossbred cross.

I have seen some good ones.

I would own one, if it was a top dog.

I would want to compete with it, if I did.

I can not understand people who would not want to compete against my dog , just because it is a crossbreed.

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Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2009 05:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
Guys, obviouslly my thinking is backwards on this.

Nobody seems to notice the times I have mentioned that I do not own one, do not plan on owning one, and will never actually intentionally make a crossbred cross.

I have seen some good ones.

I would own one, if it was a top dog.

I would want to compete with it, if I did.

I can not understand people who would not want to compete against my dog , just because it is a crossbreed.

if crossbreds were the greatest thing since sliced bread, pkc would be covered up with them.

alot of us are supporters of one breed, and enjoy supporting and improving that breed while competing against the others. we just dont want to see the 7 distinct breeds watered down to where we are all hunting the same thing. it would be like doing away with conferences in football.

for alot of folks, the main reason they hunt ukc is for the papers. you start allowing anything goes, and that motivation goes also. then you are left with the motivation of money vs. plastic, and at that point money is going to jump to #1 when it comes time to decide what event to go to.

there are a few things that distinctly seperate ukc from pkc and this is one of them, lets keep it that way.

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Posted by on 09-09-2009 06:29 PM:

Mick, I will enjoy hunting against your crossbred. Just single register him and get him entered. PKC or UKC, either one is fine me. What's the priblem?

Posted by trott on 09-09-2009 06:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bandithunter
I don't mind hunting with or against them, but I feel there's enough turd eaters in existance already so why make more?

Thirty years and on back most people hunted crossbreds. Many hunted them to feed their family and never even heard of a nite hunt. Those of us whos ancestors hunted these mixed up dogs because they were poor did so without any papers or registration. Papers did not all the sudden make dogs good. The crossbreed has been around for years and some even reproduced himself. Just something to think about, Trott.

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Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2009 06:48 PM:

i think its hypercritical to say it should be about the better dog and treeing coons not papers, but yet yall dont hunt crossbreds becuase you cant enter them or register them with ukc?

if its truely about the better dog and treeing coons, the competion hunts shouldnt play into the equation one iota.

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Posted by mjflores on 09-09-2009 08:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
They allow single registration with crossbreed dogs already............as long as the dog meets breed requirements of the breed it wants to single register to and can pass the hunt requirement, it's single registered.

Dog could be part doberman, part, rottweiler, and part B&T -- as long as it meets the B&Tsingle register requirements, it's now considered a B&T coonhound with full breeding rights.

So much for a pure registery, huh?

Can't be a true pure dog registry if they single register a heinz 57 dog that can meet breed requirements and pass a hunt test to become a recognized breed.

With a cross-breed program, the breed associations can stop single registering ---- they can do sorta like PKC -- Full blooded and Crossbreeds.

Absolutely not true!

You cannot register a doberman because it looks like a Black and Tan. If you do that then you're lieing on the paper work you're signing. Also, even if it did somehow get registered it would not have full breeding rights. It would take 5 generations before it's offsping would have full breeding rights and be eligible for the Purple Ribbon program. Have you even read the...oh never mind, you're from alabama...sorry.

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Posted by Buckshot on 09-09-2009 08:27 PM:

You need to read up a little more about single registration -- any dog that is single registered also gets breeding rights along with the registration papers.

Perhaps yall are little slower up there after all. Guess that cold freezes some of them brain cells.

Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 08:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Mick, I will enjoy hunting against your crossbred. Just single register him and get him entered. PKC or UKC, either one is fine me. What's the priblem?

I don't own a crossbreed.

Is there an echo in here?

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Posted by jackbob42 on 09-09-2009 08:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mjflores
Absolutely not true!

You cannot register a doberman because it looks like a Black and Tan. If you do that then you're lieing on the paper work you're signing. Also, even if it did somehow get registered it would not have full breeding rights. It would take 5 generations before it's offsping would have full breeding rights and be eligible for the Purple Ribbon program. Have you even read the...oh never mind, you're from alabama...sorry.

If you were to cross a B&T and a Doberman , kept a pup and it would run and tree a coon , and had a hounds looks , you could register it as a B&T.

Could you explain the " full breeding rights " thing?
The last I knew of , they wouldn't get " PR " status until after 3 generations of "PR" dogs behind them. That's it. No limitatations on breeding that I know of.
It its different , please fill me in.

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Posted by Buckshot on 09-09-2009 08:43 PM:

BOB, if a single registered dog bred a PR dog, the pups would not me PR -- it would take a few generation before future pups had PR was marked on the papers.

Contrary to Mike's rambling, single registered dogs will have full breeding rights once they are single registered -- their litters will not be PR pups. -- Example if you titled one of the pups it would read like this -- NITCH Black Hollow Jake -- had both parents been PR dogs it would look like this NITCH 'PR' Black Hollow Jake.

Mike, here is a post from Don Egli of the ABTCHA handling the B&T single registration -- quoted from the B&T forum section.

quote:
Originally posted by donnie egli
Check page 156 September Coonhound Bloodlines for more details. CORRECTION, if parentage is UNKNOWN state that!
A three generation pedigree isn't required.
IF WE GET ONE DEDICATED PROGRESSIVE BLACK AND TAN BREEDER EACH YEAR, THIS PROGRAM WILL MORE THAN SERVE IT'S PURPOSE-MY OPINION, DONNIE EGLI

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 09-09-2009 08:55 PM:

Jackbob is right 3 Gen. till PR .. Breed Them All You Want ..

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 08:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bumer26
Nick,
Just curious I know you don't hunt crossbreeds. So what breed of dogs do you hunt in the hunts? In all the hunts you been to in the last year what would you say are the best breed. Don't know this for a fact as I don't know your area or even you but I bet you have not been to hunt for years if ever. The only reason for saying this is looking at your old posts under "kr cooner" you were always whining about something. My guess is trying to get the rules changed to the type of dog that someone probably gave you.

It was KScooner and my name is Mick McLaughlin.

The truth is, I haven't been to a hunt in close to two years. I have went through a divorce and a lot of personal trouble and only recently started hunting again. When I tried to sign in again the site would not let me use my previous name, which was ok.

I am not meaning to make people mad, I do not have a problem putting my name on my statements.

Why would I want to get the rules changed for something I don't own?

I can tell you the dogs that I was impressed by that I hunted with previous to the last few years.

Moonshine who was owned by Brock Wilson at the time. He was single registerd english dog, the guy played by the rules and registerd a half walker half bluetick as an english.

The other dog was a half walker and half B&T owned by a black man in Missouri. I am sorry, I can not remember either's name. I drew the dog at the red River Classic. Since it was a PKC hunt, he was allowed to register him as a Crossbreed.

Which is what he was.

Do you really need me to name you all of the crossbred dogs in PKC that have won extensivlly?

Remember the debate about Hardrock? A lot of the B&T people went nuts about him.

Now, please tell me why you feel the need to adopt a false name and attack me for my statements on crossbreeding?

I will repeat again, I do not own one or have plans of owning one.

I just think they should be allowed to hunt and be registerd as what they are, crossbreds.

Not single registerd as English or what ever they look like, because they are not english etc....

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Posted by DEMODOG1 on 09-09-2009 09:26 PM:

Re: Re: Re: The truth about cross breeding

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
I'll take these one at a time.

1)There are a lot more junk dogs then good ones.

You can't say that about pure bred dogs?

2) people would breed junk dogs

You admit yourself that goes on in pure bred dogs.

3)Why would I want to allow it?

because I want to compete against the best dogs out there. Because alot of folks live were there are UKC clubs, but not PKC clubs. Because most people don't want to have to start a club or throw a benefit hunt, just to be able to compete in anight hunt.

Step back and ask yourself honestly why this botheres you so much?

Shouldn't a good dog be recognised, no matter the breed?

AMEN!!!

I think people are scared! Look at pkcs big winning dogs! BRING EM ON!

Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2009 10:13 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about cross breeding

quote:
Originally posted by DEMODOG1
AMEN!!!

I think people are scared! Look at pkcs big winning dogs! BRING EM ON!

please tell us the dogs on that list and how many are cross bred.

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-09-2009 10:27 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about cross breeding

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
please tell us the dogs on that list and how many are cross bred.

Here is the latest list from PKC.

More toatal money won then "pure" redbones or plotts, basically a push with English and blueticks.

And i don't know for sure, but I suspect a lot fewere being hunted.

CH Hard Knock'n Crack 07 Cro M Elijah Hall $1934.13 KY
CH Rock Creek Levi 06 Cro M Chace Mccaskill $1763.13 OK
CH Ging's Stylish Rattler 06 Cro M Ging Or Ging $1031.46 IN
CH Fantastic Krinkles 05 Cro F Russel Or Dominey $937.37 KY
CH M & W's Shock 04 Cro M Minter Or Whatley $936.65 AR
CH Redhill Ramblin' Blue Fly 02 Cro F Mullinnixx Or Rasco Or Fajkus $926.26 TX
SCH R Jungle Jane 02 Cro F Ryan Rauch $912.76 IL
CH Hardwood Copper 07 Cro M Jarrod Robertson $851.41 MS
SCH Big Ridge Spider 05 Cro F Brandon Townsell $763.75 AR
CH Pee Dee River Wipeout 07 Cro F William Hucks $753.68 SC
CH Homer's Hillbilly Jack 04 Cro M Homer Jones Jr $736.96 KY
CH Flat Tire 07 Cro M Matt Marchant $721.88 GA
CH Stylish Lonesome Trouble 03 Cro F Vanover Or Shofner $721.25 KY
CH Water Oak Blue 03 Cro M Jacob Sloan $662.9 KS
SCH Rufus 04 Cro M Hanawalt Or Messersmith $614.25 IA
CH Flat Branch Ga Thunder 07 Cro M Mims Or Levins $592.71 GA
CH Caney Creek Kimbo 07 Cro M J.j. Watters $577 AR
CH Homminga's Treeing Queen 06 Cro F Bill Homminga $575.13 MI
CH Hannah Cain 08 Cro F T J Rayfield $573.75 TN
CH Dynomite Darby 06 Cro F Taylor Or Meyers Or Corky $568.13 IA
CH Pine Log Big Red 06 Cro M Mike Hall $477.5 GA
CH Eagle's Crackhead 05 Cro M Penn Or Penn $465 la
PCH Ton Of Mayhem 03 Cro F Nick Alberson $460 GA
Do It All Becky 03 Cro F Collins Or Kendall $393.33 KY

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Posted by DEMODOG1 on 09-09-2009 10:35 PM:

Thats just some of them!

Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2009 10:36 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth about cross breeding

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
Here is the latest list from PKC.

More toatal money won then "pure" redbones or plotts, basically a push with English and blueticks.

And i don't know for sure, but I suspect a lot fewere being hunted.

CH Hard Knock'n Crack 07 Cro M Elijah Hall $1934.13 KY
CH Rock Creek Levi 06 Cro M Chace Mccaskill $1763.13 OK
CH Ging's Stylish Rattler 06 Cro M Ging Or Ging $1031.46 IN
CH Fantastic Krinkles 05 Cro F Russel Or Dominey $937.37 KY
CH M & W's Shock 04 Cro M Minter Or Whatley $936.65 AR
CH Redhill Ramblin' Blue Fly 02 Cro F Mullinnixx Or Rasco Or Fajkus $926.26 TX
SCH R Jungle Jane 02 Cro F Ryan Rauch $912.76 IL
CH Hardwood Copper 07 Cro M Jarrod Robertson $851.41 MS
SCH Big Ridge Spider 05 Cro F Brandon Townsell $763.75 AR
CH Pee Dee River Wipeout 07 Cro F William Hucks $753.68 SC
CH Homer's Hillbilly Jack 04 Cro M Homer Jones Jr $736.96 KY
CH Flat Tire 07 Cro M Matt Marchant $721.88 GA
CH Stylish Lonesome Trouble 03 Cro F Vanover Or Shofner $721.25 KY
CH Water Oak Blue 03 Cro M Jacob Sloan $662.9 KS
SCH Rufus 04 Cro M Hanawalt Or Messersmith $614.25 IA
CH Flat Branch Ga Thunder 07 Cro M Mims Or Levins $592.71 GA
CH Caney Creek Kimbo 07 Cro M J.j. Watters $577 AR
CH Homminga's Treeing Queen 06 Cro F Bill Homminga $575.13 MI
CH Hannah Cain 08 Cro F T J Rayfield $573.75 TN
CH Dynomite Darby 06 Cro F Taylor Or Meyers Or Corky $568.13 IA
CH Pine Log Big Red 06 Cro M Mike Hall $477.5 GA
CH Eagle's Crackhead 05 Cro M Penn Or Penn $465 la
PCH Ton Of Mayhem 03 Cro F Nick Alberson $460 GA
Do It All Becky 03 Cro F Collins Or Kendall $393.33 KY

why dont you compare it to all breeds? face it, nothing is going to win more than the walker dogs. he was talking about big time winners, go look at the list and it is filled with walker dogs. and yes i realize which one is sitting at the top.

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Posted by on 09-09-2009 10:38 PM:

Mick, not all of those dogs are crossbreds, atleast not in UKC. When you single register a dog in PKC you must provide UKC pedigree in order to have the dog registered that breed. I know of several UKC PR Walker dogs that are registered in PKC as Crossbreds because the owner didn't send a copy of the dogs UKC pedigree when he single registered with PKC.

Posted by rance56 on 09-09-2009 10:47 PM:

none of those dogs on that list would have been on the top 24 of the walker dogs.

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Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-10-2009 01:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Mick, not all of those dogs are crossbreds, atleast not in UKC. When you single register a dog in PKC you must provide UKC pedigree in order to have the dog registered that breed. I know of several UKC PR Walker dogs that are registered in PKC as Crossbreds because the owner didn't send a copy of the dogs UKC pedigree when he single registered with PKC.

I know, I just do not know how to sort them out and don't really know which are and are not.

This argument has gone like most in a bad direction.

I was hoping to get an answer as to why people do not wish to allow crossbreeds in UKC.

As near as I can discern, your reason is that you prefer them single registerd in to the pure breeds, rather then registerd as crossbreeds, which is what they are.

As someone who seems to like UKC as a "purebreed" registry, I don't really understand that.

You do have the right to your opinion, and I am sure your opinion is more popular then mine.

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Posted by DEMODOG1 on 09-10-2009 01:44 AM:

So we should get rid of breed exept walkers since there at the top? What does it mater? It called income the more dogs registered the beter!

Posted by mick mclaughlin on 09-10-2009 01:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
none of those dogs on that list would have been on the top 24 of the walker dogs.

How many Bue dogs would be in that Walker top 24?

They are maybe a few of every other breed combined that would be in the walker top 24.

Should we all just hunt Walkers then?

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Posted by masterd1976 on 09-10-2009 02:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mick mclaughlin
I know, I just do not know how to sort them out and don't really know which are and are not.

This argument has gone like most in a bad direction.

I was hoping to get an answer as to why people do not wish to allow crossbreeds in UKC.

As near as I can discern, your reason is that you prefer them single registerd in to the pure breeds, rather then registerd as crossbreeds, which is what they are.

As someone who seems to like UKC as a "purebreed" registry, I don't really understand that.

You do have the right to your opinion, and I am sure your opinion is more popular then mine.

I no for a fact that the Gings stylish Rattlor is a purebreed walker. Looks like skip was to lazy to send in his papers. Skip your a jerk off!!

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Posted by masterd1976 on 09-10-2009 02:19 AM:

I could be wrong but I think it would make the dog thefts go up. If you could steal a dog sell two states over and get papers in 2 of the 3 kcs, I only see bad things coming from that.

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