UKC Forums - Gyps identified as brood stock...

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Posted by jaiman on 03-20-2009 04:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Larry,

I have a stud dog here that had some pretty dog gone famous littermates that did a LOT of winning.

I have hunted with every one of his litter mates, and I've owned, hunted, campained, judged, bred, and raised pups out of not only him, but also out of his littermates.

While it matters not if the pup was out of my dog, or one of his litter mates...I certainly can see similarities between all of them. There are indeed individual differences....but only after you've had this kind of exposure to the ENTIRE FAMILY can you make any assumptions about the true genetic potential in a dog.

I believe, of course I have no real "proof", that the traits that are shared by a dog and it's litter mates, are the "prepotent" traits. Those that will most likely be passed on in successive generations. These prepotent traits can be diminished through outcrossing, or they can be enhanced through line breeding, and after successive generations, they will indeed become "predicatable".

Those traits have no bearing on winning a competition...but they do indeed serve as an enabler for a winner....

I've rambled on long enough...

Carry on!

True words

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-20-2009 04:37 PM:

Which parts are true....

The "I've rambled on long enough"?

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-20-2009 05:20 PM:

Joe,

You lost me. I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. I made a statement that siblings are not genetically identical, and therefore are not the same gene pool.

I won't say they aren't going to be similiar, but they are also not the same. To say they are the same is to imply they are identical. Now, a more linebreed a line should be more similiar, but linebreeding wasn't part of the topic.

So, are you telling me that you would take a dog that was given a more than fair chance that wasn't even able to consistently tree coon, but who had famous siblings as breeding stock?

Push comes to shove, human nature would have us pushing that youngster more who had famous siblings than one who did not. Why because there is a greater chance of a larger return. Due to human nature, I personally would be hard pressed to consider such a dog. JMO

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-20-2009 08:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
Joe,

You lost me. I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. I made a statement that siblings are not genetically identical, and therefore are not the same gene pool.

I won't say they aren't going to be similiar, but they are also not the same. To say they are the same is to imply they are identical. Now, a more linebreed a line should be more similiar, but linebreeding wasn't part of the topic.

So, are you telling me that you would take a dog that was given a more than fair chance that wasn't even able to consistently tree coon, but who had famous siblings as breeding stock?

Push comes to shove, human nature would have us pushing that youngster more who had famous siblings than one who did not. Why because there is a greater chance of a larger return. Due to human nature, I personally would be hard pressed to consider such a dog. JMO

Larry,

Didn't make myself clear.

I took a female that was NOT given a fair chance, and was out of a line bred cross...so should have come to the table with a very "stable" set of traits. Line breed her to a male from the same line. I got pups with the traits that I would expect to get.

The rest of that rant is about being able to predict the outcome of line breeding based on first hand knowledge of the traits, and that the traits that are most easily passed along are those that are SHARED amongst the parents siblings. i.e...loud dogs beget loud dogs....nothing earth shattering, just close personal observations.

We agree that siblings are NOT identical....but if the siblings share traits...then they are most likely to pass that trait on...if they are all loud...then they should pass on the loud trait.

Make sense now?

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Posted by BlueJohn on 03-20-2009 08:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
"the gene pool is the same in full siblings" if this was in fact true then the following "this stallion produced better than any of his siblings," would not happen.

If they had the same gene pool, they should have all produced equally.

Actually, full siblings on the average share only about 25% the same genes. If you toss 2 coins you can get one of the following:

HH
HT
TH
TT

Genes work the same way. You get one half of a gene pair from each parent. So if you toss the two coins for one pup and get HH there's only a one in four chance of getting the same gene pair (HH) for the full sibling. That process happens billions of times for each pup.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-20-2009 09:04 PM:

o.k. agreed, it works if someone like your self is diligently selecting for the same traits. Unfortunately, that is not how a typical coon dog cross goes.

I also completely agree that a dog's breeding worth is not contingent on its training. It is just until the secrets of DNA are figured out the best measure we have to confirm the ingredients are there is performance. That is if no one is brave enough to do some progeny testing.

I make too few crosses to make any more experimental crosses. My first and last one cost me much more than i ever imagined.

I would like to point one thing out to every one. While Joe wasn't sure if this young female's lack of training was the reason for her ability, he did have one of the top selection tools in making wise breeding decisions available to him. That is a thourough family knowledge.

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Posted by Justin Smith on 03-20-2009 11:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BlueJohn
Actually, full siblings on the average share only about 25% the same genes. If you toss 2 coins you can get one of the following:

HH
HT
TH
TT

Genes work the same way. You get one half of a gene pair from each parent. So if you toss the two coins for one pup and get HH there's only a one in four chance of getting the same gene pair (HH) for the full sibling. That process happens billions of times for each pup.

Not true in the real world ... the genetics we see in a litter can come through much more consistant than that and they should considering how far along we are with livestock breeding.

As Joe mentioned ... Prepotency is the holy grail ... a sire or dam that's influence for the X-factor is strong beyond explanation and beyond just the first generation.

DNA testing ... this is just for parentage now , but it's the tip of the iceberg for those willing to jump in . The DNA shows strength of relationship ... we can already see which littermates show a stronger relationship to their sire or dam .. traits we don't know about ... but if we are looking for something most like a certain family member .. on a genetic level that science can back us up on ... bingo !!!

I am seeing both of these principles to be holding true in the real world this spring ... eerily so .

Posted by Les Young on 03-21-2009 03:05 PM:

I agree

If you strongly know what the results were of a litter & knew If they were top notch I would probably use a littermate that just wasn't given the chance to be a finished out top coondog also. If you have the first hand knowledge & not heresay of the results from this cross why not, which is why some very smart linebreeders consistently reproduce coondogs. Because they use first hand Knowledge only & not heresay they know the predictable traits from a family bred line of dogs & pretty much know what to expect on average from the results. I personally would only buy pups from linebreeders that were so schooled from first hand generation after generation experience only that always had top dogs to show you & were glad to do so. Afterall anyone is glad to show a top dog or pups from them& different females when they know they're a top reproducer or a top shelf line of dogs with the strongpoints we all are pretty much looking for. I personally want to see the drive & ability, accuracy & tempermant from anything that i'm interested in & won't buy pups that are skiddish in anyway. If their not very, very bold as very small pups I won't own them, but know some that don't socialize with pups enough either & you can usually tell the difference in minutes

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Posted by jay brademeyer on 03-21-2009 05:01 PM:

taking a littermate to some top stud and breeding it on the merit of littermates is the worst practice in the world. you can breed yourself right out of buisness with those tactics. just because you have a dog out of an outstanding cross, but it didn't turn out for what ever reason doesn't qualify it for the breeding pen. those are your back yard beeders club members . will some produce? yes , they have , but if you are breeding a counterfit on the merits of littermates , you are injecting that counterfit dog into the gen pool. when it should have been culled. the cull might produce some dandies, but them dandies have the culls genes and they will pass that down . mabe a generation or two down the road, but the cull will come back to haunt you. guaranteed.....

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Posted by Skyward on 03-21-2009 05:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jay brademeyer
taking a littermate to some top stud and breeding it on the merit of littermates is the worst practice in the world. you can breed yourself right out of buisness with those tactics. just because you have a dog out of an outstanding cross, but it didn't turn out for what ever reason doesn't qualify it for the breeding pen. those are your back yard beeders club members . will some produce? yes , they have , but if you are breeding a counterfit on the merits of littermates , you are injecting that counterfit dog into the gen pool. when it should have been culled. the cull might produce some dandies, but them dandies have the culls genes and they will pass that down . mabe a generation or two down the road, but the cull will come back to haunt you. guaranteed.....

There is a difference between a cull and a gyp that is undetermined. A cull has demonstrated insufficient genetics as an individual to be bred. An undetermined is exactly that, undetermined. I don't think anyone is advocating breeding a cull.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-21-2009 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jay brademeyer
taking a littermate to some top stud and breeding it on the merit of littermates is the worst practice in the world. you can breed yourself right out of buisness with those tactics. just because you have a dog out of an outstanding cross, but it didn't turn out for what ever reason doesn't qualify it for the breeding pen. those are your back yard beeders club members . will some produce? yes , they have , but if you are breeding a counterfit on the merits of littermates , you are injecting that counterfit dog into the gen pool. when it should have been culled. the cull might produce some dandies, but them dandies have the culls genes and they will pass that down . mabe a generation or two down the road, but the cull will come back to haunt you. guaranteed.....

Jay,

Nobody said anything about a "cull"....

What I've said before, and I'll say it every time I'm asked....

You are far better off breeding to the average dog out of an outstanding litter, than an outstanding dog our of an average litter

I feel safe in saying that, because if the litter truly was outstanding, the average dog out of that litter is usually much better than average...

And besides, I'm breeding for traits...not making selection based upon success....titles mean NOTHING....

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Posted by jay brademeyer on 03-21-2009 06:30 PM:

you are right in saying you would be better breeding to a dog out of a litter of good than to an indavidual. i agree, but several on this thread are talking about brood females (so called) being bred because they are out of a outstanding cross ,and for what ever reason they didn't turn out. if they were out of an outstanding cross and didn't get a chance that is one thing, but usually there is a reason for that. i surely wouldn't breed it based on the merits of the cross. pups in a litter can be marked by any dog or number of dogs in it's ped. bottom line . there are known good ones out there to breed to and if they are out of a good cross there should be several to choose from , why fool with the question mark?

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-21-2009 10:44 PM:

The original questions was, "With all the braggadocio that goes on in these dogs, could someone explain to me what is meant when a female is identified as "brood" or "haven't done much with her, selling her as brood"? "

In fact, I know of some brood females that I would not own or breed who had great pedigrees.

I would bet nine times out of ten the above does translate into a cull. So I would say that quailifies the discussion about breeding subpar females.

Sure, some can point to an exception, but as breeders we should not be betting on the exceptions. I do not consider Joe's example as a typical example of the original question.

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Posted by joseph mcdonald on 03-21-2009 11:00 PM:

Jay, alot of reasons for dogs not getting hunted right. Work, Family, too many hounds, top young prospect needing singled out, sickness...... I could go on and on. Bottom line is, if you've been with a family of hounds for several gen. and know the grandparents, greatgrandparents, father mother and all theyre littermates, you dont have to hunt the piss out of an individual to see whether it has the natural ability youre looking for. If you do have to hunt everything for 4 years before you can determine whether or not its breeding stock, I would suggest, cull everything you have and go upgrade. Not everything works for everyone, but I dont believe we have to finish break and title a hound before you know whether or not to breed to him/her, especially if you've been with the family of dogs long enough to make a solid decision. Also, shells are cheap enough to straighten out a bad cross anyways.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-21-2009 11:06 PM:

Joseph,

Again, original post said nothing about a breeder making a breeding decision based on generations of family knowledge.

I will ask two questions of every one out there. Do you really think that all those brood females for sale are just unfortunate dogs?

If they were such good reproducers, then why should they sell them?

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Posted by joseph mcdonald on 03-21-2009 11:17 PM:

He!! Larry, I dont know!!

I'm just saying that there are other circumstances sometimes. So if you dont know the gyp or anything about her, dont breed her, or buy her. I do know this though, without gettin a few garbage, junk gyps to a stud I dont believe you'll ever truly see how dominant he is in the hunting traits dept.

Posted by Skyward on 03-21-2009 11:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton

I will ask two questions of every one out there. Do you really think that all those brood females for sale are just unfortunate dogs?

If they were such good reproducers, then why should they sell them?

My original question was a poke into some of the standards that are allowable apparently by some folks. They claim to be all about COONDOGS yet you routinely see them breeding gyps that are questionable. Many breeders say that the gyp is as important as the stud. They say one thing and do another. In a world of solid stud dogs, why aren't the gyps held to the same standard as routinely as the studs? The gyps are only limited to several litters thereby having a built in limit in terms of money to be made by selling their (pups)offspring. Stud dogs however can be bred until their nutsack is dry with a limit only defined by the owners pocketbook. If the gyp is as important as we believe, then why are they often not afforded the same opportunity to prove their worth as the stud dogs are? Of course, I am excluding the exceptions. For the gyps that don't, won't or can't......why are not more people questioning the "selling as brood" ideals? I have yet to see a stud that has the proud owner on zero titles being open at stud. But many litters are being peddled off of gyps that have yet to live upto any known standard outside of the breeders line of bs.

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 03-21-2009 11:33 PM:

Sky, there are several studs with no titles out there that get bred to fairly regularly and get good pups.

My question is, so the s.o.b is a barnburner, titled up in 3 different registries? Now they put big ads on him, breed alot of gyps at $300 dollars a whack, then 2 years later you ask yourself what happened to ole so and so and all his pups? Im saying a man should find out whether that male is gonna reproduce, and not just one litter, before you take another mans $300 and send him down the road. Lets not blame all this on the BROOD FEMALES. LOL!!!!

Posted by Skyward on 03-22-2009 01:10 AM:

Thats exactly what I was thinking. I see allot of folks talking with a forked tongue. lol Makes a guy hold his standards even higher in an attempt to offset all the bs. I have a gyp thats in heat right now on her 9th day. She is untitled yet is developing into a very nice animal. I have the opportunity to breed her to a real nice dog that would produce a litter of linebred pups with her. If I skip this season, it will be at this time next year that I would be able to breed her. I don't want any of my dogs out of commission during kill season. Anyway, I was poking and probing to see what others thoughts were. I just hope the ole boy is around next year. I am in need of a couple of males.

Posted by larry ross on 03-22-2009 10:24 AM:

IF THEY ARE NOT A COON DOG DONT BREED THEM WE WOULD SEE BETTER PERCENTAGE OF PUPS IN FUTURE GENERATIONS MAKING COON DOGS AND BUILD YOUR BREEDING PROGRAM AROUND GOOD FEMALES AND KNOWTHE ANCESTORS TRAITS FOR AS MANY GENERATIONS AS POSSIBLE AND CULL INFERIOR DOGS SO THEY DO NOT GET IN THE GENE POOL I WILL CONTINUE TO DO THIS AND LINE BREED FOR CERTAIN TRAITS . AND TRY TO USE MALES AND FEMALES THAT CAME FROM GOOD LITTERS IT SEEMS TO WORK FOR ME

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Posted by Justin Smith on 03-22-2009 02:24 PM:

As long as you see the kind of natural talent and horsepower you want ... breeding young is fine and in most cases the best thing to do .

Hunting dogs get lost , killed or stolent too much to assume you have all the time in the world to breed ...

... young dogs produce your best stock also , their genes are healthier and have less chromosome damage than old stock.

If a young gyp is impressing you and want to breed her , go with your gut and forget what anyone says ... just own up to what you did if it doesn't work just like you would if it would have.

My best dogs came from young , well started gyps that had the talent and drive I knew was special ... but they weren't finished yet.

Posted by joseph mcdonald on 03-22-2009 03:16 PM:

Not tying to stir anyone up, but just some food for thought, Larry Ross, I agree with you to a certain degree, but lets take the 3, 4, and 5 gen. all grand stuff. I'm going to assume since all the hounds in the pedigrees were Grand nites that they were at least somewhat capable of treeing a coon and doing it fairly consistently to grand out. Okay, with the coondog to coondog theory, technically the pups from crosses of this nature should have a better chance of making it, right? Well, I've seen several from crosses like this that didnt make it.

I have seen hounds from known junk females make outstanding dogs, I mean the whole litters turned out. I have also had to cull whole litters out of coondog x coondog crosses. All I'm saying is for some reason, you get what the dogs throw, not exactly what they are.

Posted by Les Young on 03-22-2009 03:30 PM:

I couldn't agree more

If they(male or female)have the born in natural ability & owned by a pleasure hunter who won't title his dogs what does it matter as long as they've got the natural born ability? I myself won't breed one for myself unless their an absolute night in night out coondog that I enjoy hunting. I have a very good freind who's linebred his stock for over 40 yrs. that can pretty much tell you what every litter will do& he's consistantly got coondogs anyone would be proud to own, that is if they aren't worried about the pedigree being filled by registered dogs only. Some wouldn't own one for this reason, but I gladly will simply because I've hunted with several generations& know what his breeding produces consistantly which is sure enough way better than average coondogs. It's the socalled breeders that will breed anything that comes into heat that won't make it long in the breeders game. Which is why i'm with you guys on this in that the socalled brood bitch was a reproducer of natural born in ability why get rid of it. The only way I will is because of age & love seeing a serious breeder end up with the ones I let go to simply get a litter out of their good reproducing male. After all coondogs is what were all after to begin with.

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Posted by Les Young on 03-22-2009 03:47 PM:

??? for the very experienced linebreeders

I was thinking of crossing my sometimes very tight mouthed female to her half mate. they are both top notch when it comes to treeing coon & will have the meat about 90% of the time, extremely accurate. The male is more like his sire in that he's a very good open mouth dog that's an absolute track driving son of a gun & catches a lot of them on the ground. He has a very good disposition, good tree dog & loud. Everyone comments on his track speed, but of course I knew it from a very young age. He won't be titled unless Chris & I do it more than likely. It doesn't matter to me although I'd like to see it. He's heavy Sackett Jr. bred(once through Nut & twice through mother). My female only has Sackett Jr. once through Nut & is all registered on bottom except for her dam & grand sire which show none of todays famous bloodlines.Both my female & half mate are top shelf cooners. What do you think the results might be if I make this cross as I'm breeding for top coondogs?? Also if pups make it should I make an extreme outcross & go back to the sire of the 2 the next time?? Joe I'd like some input from you here also. Thanks

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-22-2009 03:49 PM:

Push comes to shove these types of discussions are great! Not every one agrees, but lots of view points being discussed. Many by the way are full of merit.

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