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-- treed in holes (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=255342)

Around here, you can be pretty sure if it's in a hole its not a coon...Maybe 1 in a 100. If your going to many holes around here, you got yourself a gray fox dog....

well down here in florida if you get a dog going to a hole you better tear his butt up . armadillos and rattle snakes is what you will find here not a coon.

dogs are not stupid. they know the difference between a tree and the ground just like they know the difference between coons and possums

__________________
Handler of 2009 AKC World Champion Redbone "Light'in"
Hard Stroakin Kennels & Pure Rage Big Game Hounds
Justin Jackson
"THIS AINT NO BEAUTY CONTEST"
coon and bear dogs of the FINEST kind
Home Of:
BH MTN Nitetime Rascle (Qualified for AKC World Hunt & PKC Super Stakes)
BH MTN Lee's Image (Lee) ----(UKC 2nd & 3rd place & Qualified for the AKC World Hunt)
Hrd Strkn Pure Rage Hammer
Lee's Hard Stroakin Meg
Hard Stroakin Bonnie (A.K.A SPEEDY)
Gone But Never Forgotten:
GRNITECH Owenby's Rebel Sue
NITECH Hanks Wild Meg
PR Hard Stroakin Jake (A Squirrel Treeing Machine)
GRCH Spring Hill Blue Spice
GRNITECH Heartbreak Holly

Holes

A coon dog is trained to track and corner up the coon.. RIGHT ? He did that give him some credit.. It did his/hers job.. Might not have been at your convience but he did it.. Give the dog a patt on the head.. and go on...

__________________
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<> <> OKIESAWYERS KENNEL <> <>
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**COONDOG MAFIA MEMBER**


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Houndmen Deluxe:
www.deer-creek.org

Mr Sawyers and Mr Duemmer

I knew this one was going to get to this point but I was surprised by it taking as long as it did.I have been chastized before on this subject but I'll try to explain.

Your responses to this subject have been tilted in a selfish way towards your way of hunting.

I can assure you that if you came to my back yard and hunted you would find your dogs treed in the ground on at least one occasion a night. In my area we hunt hills and hollers that are limestone in nature and the ground is full of cracks and crevises and holes and I believe that the commonwealth of Ky is home to the largest cave system in the North American continient, and maybe in the world.
I can take you to areas right near my home where the coons are very much more subject to den in the grond then in a hollow tree. These ground dens might only appear to be as large as a ground hog hole ,or they could be a large sink hole that is filled and covered with dozer piles out in the middle of a field. These holes lead to underground caverns and cracks and crevises that coons can get back into that a dog or a human cannot reach. In my thirty years of hunting I have only ever seen one or two holes of this nature that a dog or man was able to get a grip on a coon.
Pleasure hunters,and hide hunters , for as long as I've hunted, have always broke there dogs from treeing in the ground because of the steep hills that we might encounter or the brush pile that we might have to try to dig a dog out of while never producing a coon . Or the possibility of loosing a dog to the caves below.
When you turn your dogs down Ten Mile Hollow down in the lower end of the county and they drop all the way to the bottom of it and go a mile or two and end up treed ,when I drop down in there going to them, knowing what it going to be like climbing back out ,there better be a coon up a tree when I get there.

Most of these hounds are easy to teach that a track that ends in the ground will never produce any reward and should be considered over ,while finishing tracks at the tree are very much the prefered way for a track to end up and they will stay till the cows come home in an effort to please the handler with a coon produced up a tree.
The female I lost last winter was a top notch natural born tree dog and would take all the pressure you could put on her (except for extreme fang pressure) and was a solid tree dog wether she was right or occasionally wrong yet when she finished (and yes I said finished ) a track in the ground she would give a short locate usually followed by one or two quick hard chops. and then would move on . She WOULD NOT stay and tree in the ground and thats the way I wanted her to work. I could tell you immediatly that the track had ended in the ground. She was a pretty fair track dog in her own right also. She wouldn't come back or go to the truck . She would go find one up a tree and tree it and stay until I got there.
The young dog my son and I have now will not stay in the ground either but he doesn't have that ground locate like the old female did so it sometimes leaves me wondering but as he becomes a better track dog I have more confidence in him that he is actually finishing those tracks that go in the ground .

Neither of these dogs was "beat unneccessarily or shocked excessively " to have them perform like this . They just learn the difference between what happens to tracks that end up in the ground as compared to tracks that end up in a tree.

Don't underestimate the intelligence of these hounds and don't judge everyone across the country's hunting types by your own hunting styles, and terrains, and types of hunting .

If I wanted to ground hunt I would own some terriers.

__________________
Lets go ...she aint goin nowhere
TEAM GUTPILE Coming Soon !

Re: Mr Sawyers and Mr Duemmer

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeff H.
I knew this one was going to get to this point but I was surprised by it taking as long as it did.I have been chastized before on this subject but I'll try to explain.

Your responses to this subject have been tilted in a selfish way towards your way of hunting.

I can assure you that if you came to my back yard and hunted you would find your dogs treed in the ground on at least one occasion a night. In my area we hunt hills and hollers that are limestone in nature and the ground is full of cracks and crevises and holes and I believe that the commonwealth of Ky is home to the largest cave system in the North American continient, and maybe in the world.
I can take you to areas right near my home where the coons are very much more subject to den in the grond then in a hollow tree. These ground dens might only appear to be as large as a ground hog hole ,or they could be a large sink hole that is filled and covered with dozer piles out in the middle of a field. These holes lead to underground caverns and cracks and crevises that coons can get back into that a dog or a human cannot reach. In my thirty years of hunting I have only ever seen one or two holes of this nature that a dog or man was able to get a grip on a coon.
Pleasure hunters,and hide hunters , for as long as I've hunted, have always broke there dogs from treeing in the ground because of the steep hills that we might encounter or the brush pile that we might have to try to dig a dog out of while never producing a coon . Or the possibility of loosing a dog to the caves below.
When you turn your dogs down Ten Mile Hollow down in the lower end of the county and they drop all the way to the bottom of it and go a mile or two and end up treed ,when I drop down in there going to them, knowing what it going to be like climbing back out ,there better be a coon up a tree when I get there.

Most of these hounds are easy to teach that a track that ends in the ground will never produce any reward and should be considered over ,while finishing tracks at the tree are very much the prefered way for a track to end up and they will stay till the cows come home in an effort to please the handler with a coon produced up a tree.
The female I lost last winter was a top notch natural born tree dog and would take all the pressure you could put on her (except for extreme fang pressure) and was a solid tree dog wether she was right or occasionally wrong yet when she finished (and yes I said finished ) a track in the ground she would give a short locate usually followed by one or two quick hard chops. and then would move on . She WOULD NOT stay and tree in the ground and thats the way I wanted her to work. I could tell you immediatly that the track had ended in the ground. She was a pretty fair track dog in her own right also. She wouldn't come back or go to the truck . She would go find one up a tree and tree it and stay until I got there.
The young dog my son and I have now will not stay in the ground either but he doesn't have that ground locate like the old female did so it sometimes leaves me wondering but as he becomes a better track dog I have more confidence in him that he is actually finishing those tracks that go in the ground .

Neither of these dogs was "beat unneccessarily or shocked excessively " to have them perform like this . They just learn the difference between what happens to tracks that end up in the ground as compared to tracks that end up in a tree.

Don't underestimate the intelligence of these hounds and don't judge everyone across the country's hunting types by your own hunting styles, and terrains, and types of hunting .

If I wanted to ground hunt I would own some terriers.

---

__________________
==========================
<> <> OKIESAWYERS KENNEL <> <>
==========================
**COONDOG MAFIA MEMBER**


-----------------------------------
Houndmen Deluxe:
www.deer-creek.org

These dogs broke from holes LOCATE the hole. You don't wonder, you know what happened if you know the dog. They may stay there a minute or so, but they go on and find another track that goes to a tree instead of the ground.

The territory Jeff is talking about is what I grew up in. The same plateau that goes from Kentucky through Tennessee. There if you don't have your dog broke from holes you won't have your dog long. It will be a DEAD dog because it got stuck in a limestone hole somewhere and couldn't get out and you couldn't find it. You can't get the coon out of them anyway.

Like we have said before, if you had a dog killed in the ground, or had to hunt in rough country where the coon lived in the ground you would break your dogs from the ground too.

If you drew out on a competition hunt around there you would be SMOKED by any local dog cause while your dog was treein in the ground and gettin circled (remember these are caves, you ain't gonna see anything) the dogs that have been broke from the ground will be treein coons up trees.

We have had people from other parts of the country come up before and claim they don't see anything wrong with treein in the ground. After all night of their dog not gettin in on one coon cause it put four different ones in the ground while our dogs went on and treed coon up on the outside he changed his mind.

Where he hunted it wasn't a big deal, it was only 2-3 holes a year. Were I used to hunt if your dog wasn't broke from the ground it would be at least 1 a night and sometimes like above 3-4 times in one night cause there the coon live in the groud. Heck I have had them literally hit the ground after bein shot out of a tree, bounce one time and be in a ground hole never to be seen again.

Where I live at not its not a problem. Haven't had too many go in the ground around here. Back home it's a different story all together. It's unusual to have a night that at least one DIDN'T get in the ground.

Different country has different needs.

__________________
Let's go huntin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rip
These dogs broke from holes LOCATE the hole. You don't wonder, you know what happened if you know the dog. They may stay there a minute or so, but they go on and find another track that goes to a tree instead of the ground.

The territory Jeff is talking about is what I grew up in. The same plateau that goes from Kentucky through Tennessee. There if you don't have your dog broke from holes you won't have your dog long. It will be a DEAD dog because it got stuck in a limestone hole somewhere and couldn't get out and you couldn't find it. You can't get the coon out of them anyway.

Like we have said before, if you had a dog killed in the ground, or had to hunt in rough country where the coon lived in the ground you would break your dogs from the ground too.

If you drew out on a competition hunt around there you would be SMOKED by any local dog cause while your dog was treein in the ground and gettin circled (remember these are caves, you ain't gonna see anything) the dogs that have been broke from the ground will be treein coons up trees.

We have had people from other parts of the country come up before and claim they don't see anything wrong with treein in the ground. After all night of their dog not gettin in on one coon cause it put four different ones in the ground while our dogs went on and treed coon up on the outside he changed his mind.

Where he hunted it wasn't a big deal, it was only 2-3 holes a year. Were I used to hunt if your dog wasn't broke from the ground it would be at least 1 a night and sometimes like above 3-4 times in one night cause there the coon live in the groud. Heck I have had them literally hit the ground after bein shot out of a tree, bounce one time and be in a ground hole never to be seen again.

Where I live at not its not a problem. Haven't had too many go in the ground around here. Back home it's a different story all together. It's unusual to have a night that at least one DIDN'T get in the ground.

Different country has different needs.

---

__________________
==========================
<> <> OKIESAWYERS KENNEL <> <>
==========================
**COONDOG MAFIA MEMBER**


-----------------------------------
Houndmen Deluxe:
www.deer-creek.org