UKC Forums - UKC Rule scenario

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-- UKC Rule scenario (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=249624)

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 02:45 AM:

Well let me give you this scinario.

You own dog A.

Dogs strike a coon, you notice B and C are a little loose mouthed and you go in for 25, dog D is honest but just called quicker than you. The difference is that dogs B,C and D are all bucket dogs and they tree QUICK on the bucket tree, but your dog works it on out and has the right track. Their tree is scored circle cause there's leaves on the tree even though you know it's likely slick.

Now your dog is startin to heat it up, really movin the track fixin to tree any second about 1/4 from you.

Do you want those dogs to get in there and get 100/75/50 on the track that your dog just worked out? If you do you just got beat cause those dogs will make it before the 5, and they are loose mouthed so they will be on the paper. Your dog will get 150 plus but dog B is gonna get 175 on a track he had absolutely nothin to do with except back your dog.

The way the rule is now dog B can only get 25 strike cause he can't strike above you and 75 tree so he can't get ya.

Now see why I think the rule is fair?

That's similar to what happened above because B was with them on the first tree so they only made one tree without him.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 03:09 AM:

the rule is for coon treed not circled slicks!!LOL

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Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 03:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
the rule is for coon treed not circled slicks!!LOL

No, actually the rule that keeps them struck in at 25 has nothing to do with treein a coon. It applies whether the other dogs are plused, minused or circled. It just says no dog can be struck in above another dog. That's exactly why I picked the slick/circled dogs for the scinario. It woud be a HUGE advantage for them without this rule (this is the specific rule that kept them from striking in above dog B in the origional question).

Back to the origional question. The non working dog rule doesn't apply to dog B because he was with them on the first tree so they didn't tree two coons on him.

The non working dog rule doesn't matter in regards to dog B and the not being able to strike over another dog doesn't matter in regards to dog A (because dog A fulfilled the requirements to be declared a non working dog thus giving special permission to strike in above him)

The non working dog rule kept dog A from screwing the cast out of strike points. At the same time not being able to strike in above him kept the other dogs from screwing over dog B and getting more strike points on a track that he had been working on before them.

Now see why I said the rules on this seemed fair to me?

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 03:30 AM:

i don't care what you say!! the dog that got under two coon is getting the shaft because one dog missed out on a coon along with dog A...i want to know what Allen G. says is the correct way to score it..

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 03:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
i don't care what you say!! the dog that got under two coon is getting the shaft because one dog missed out on a coon along with dog A...i want to know what Allen G. says is the correct way to score it..

Dan, it's in black and white and I even posted the exact rules direct from this website. Didn't mean to tick you off. I thought you was just goin on with me and knew the correct way to rule it but just disagreed with it on principal.

That is the correct way to score it. You can NOT apply the non hunting dog rule to dog B because he didn't meet the requirements, namely holding strike open while the other dogs treed two coons or for one hour. The dog MUST meet the requirements before rule 7 can be used.

Since you can't call him a non working dog then the rules (of which there are TWO) state no other dog can strike in above him and you have to go by those.

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Posted by on 01-14-2009 03:43 AM:

I haven't read all the replys, but I see there is some varying answers.

After 1 hr of hunting time,
Dog A is still carrying 100 strike, and has failed to make a tree all night.
Dog B is carrying 25 strike (regardless if I replayed the early part incorrectly, I remember Dog B was carrying 25). Dog B was on the first tree, but then decided to run circles with Dog A for the next 45 minutes.
Dogs C & D had been scored at two trees. And were recast.
Dog D opens and is struck for 100 followed by Dog C is struck for 75. That is correct per UKC (it was followed up on just for educational purposes).
Yes, Dog B is on the short end of the stick. Dog B's handler even makes an argument to minus his dog so he can restrike in, (no reason to minus).
The rule is not intended to punish Dog B, but to reward Dogs C & D in this scenario.
Anyone that disagrees is not thinking right. Why would you "punish" Dogs C & D for finishing two tracks, while Dog A hasn't finished anything. Dogs C & D could have remained on a leash, Dogs A & B weren't accomplishing anything but running in circles never covering more than a 200 yard area. It wasn't until Dogs D & C were recast and struck and moved out of there when Dog B finally figured out it was me-tooing with the wrong dog. Dogs C & D went on to finish that one and have another coon after the hunt was over.

Dog A holds it 100 strike, Dog B holds it 25 strike, Dog C is struck in for 75, Dog D is struck for 100. This was confirmed to be the right scoring per UKC.

Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 03:51 AM:

well thats the way i always thought it was until i heard different this summer.. then after i heard that you didn't have to two coon on any certain dog....so i'm in limbo on this one..i just don't feel it's right to block a dog on the non working dog rule..it just keeps dog A closer to the leading dog if he does finally get under a coon...i have been competition hunting 30 yrs and never had this come up on a cast..i also won a rqe that the judge forgot to let me strike in above after two coon were treed and i forgot also!!LOL we never thought about till after the score card was turned in to the master of hounds..i had 750+ but should of had around 900+...we were just having to much fun treeing coon to worry about the non working dog rule..lol

Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 03:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by brogy
I haven't read all the replys, but I see there is some varying answers.

After 1 hr of hunting time,
Dog A is still carrying 100 strike, and has failed to make a tree all night.
Dog B is carrying 25 strike (regardless if I replayed the early part incorrectly, I remember Dog B was carrying 25). Dog B was on the first tree, but then decided to run circles with Dog A for the next 45 minutes.
Dogs C & D had been scored at two trees. And were recast.
Dog D opens and is struck for 100 followed by Dog C is struck for 75. That is correct per UKC (it was followed up on just for educational purposes).
Yes, Dog B is on the short end of the stick. Dog B's handler even makes an argument to minus his dog so he can restrike in, (no reason to minus).
The rule is not intended to punish Dog B, but to reward Dogs C & D in this scenario.
Anyone that disagrees is not thinking right. Why would you "punish" Dogs C & D for finishing two tracks, while Dog A hasn't finished anything. Dogs C & D could have remained on a leash, Dogs A & B weren't accomplishing anything but running in circles never covering more than a 200 yard area. It wasn't until Dogs D & C were recast and struck and moved out of there when Dog B finally figured out it was me-tooing with the wrong dog. Dogs C & D went on to finish that one and have another coon after the hunt was over.

Dog A holds it 100 strike, Dog B holds it 25 strike, Dog C is struck in for 75, Dog D is struck for 100. This was confirmed to be the right scoring per UKC.

rip almost convinced me i was wrong...lol

Posted by on 01-14-2009 04:04 AM:

Two coon were scored on Dog A. 1 coon was scored on Dog B. Dog A had carried 100 strike for over an hour.
I'm pretty sure you have to tree 2 coon, (or 1 hour) on a dog that is carrying 1st or 2nd strike.
You only need 1 scenario or the other. We had both.
Dog B had a bad break, but then again Dogs C & D were striking and finishing tracks from the same area while Dogs A & B were auditioning for NASCAR.

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 03:34 PM:

Brogy, can't happen.

You can ONLY strike above a dog holding strike points if THAT DOG is the non working dog.

There are two separate rules stating that you can NOT strike in above another dog that is working as part of the cast.

Rule 7 is an exception, as an exception the specifics of that exception must be met.

If it was only dog A that was holding down the strike ponts then yes, he meets the criteria and you would reopen the strike points.

However, dog B is still considered to be working WITH the cast so you can NOT apply the non working dog rule to him period.

If you can't apply the non working dog rule to him then you have to go with the TWO rules that says no dog can be struck in above him.

That's the way exception rules work, you can't get minused on a tree that a dog comes into after the judge UNLESS coon is seen, coon must be seen, requirements must be fulfilled. Same thing here, Dog B can NOT be struck in over UNLESS he is a nonworking dog. Since he does't fit that definition then he can't be struck in above him.

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Posted by on 01-14-2009 03:42 PM:

I think Rip is correct all the way on this one.

Posted by on 01-14-2009 03:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I think Rip is correct all the way on this one.

That's not what you said when I emailed this scenario to you last fall! LOL!

Posted by on 01-14-2009 03:51 PM:

Normally I save the emails when I ask Allen rule questions, for this one the judge and the MOH called Allen the following week. I was told it was scored correctly.
I do have JiM's emailed reply!

Posted by on 01-14-2009 03:57 PM:

Last fall????? I barely remember last night.

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 04:01 PM:

Brogy, the only way that your way could be correct is if UKC had some wierd interpretation because you can NOT get that from how the rules are written. Basically your are saying you can apply a rule to dog B that dog B doesn't meet the requirements for.

That said, it's UKC's company and they are free to "interpret" it any way they see fit and I will abide by it, as I have always done.

However, there are Roberts Rules of Order as well as the way rules are written, how the english language is interpreted, and how legal documents are interpreted (which rules kinda of are). Exceptions must meet all requirements, no means no etc. When dealing with rules you have the "standard" way to do things. In this case it is standard scoring in no less than two different places that a dog working with the cast can not be struck in over. Now there is an exception, the non working dog rule. However, in rules for any exception to the standard that exception must apply. No doubt it 100% applies to dog A, but it does NOT apply to dog B. So, in regards to dogs being struck in above dog B you must go by the standard scoring until he does qualify for the exception.

Before UKC ruled differently a NtCh dog, just by how you have to interpret rules and the English language, was scratched for even coming in late to an off game tree because the rules defined the authority of the judge as from when he got the card till when it was turned in. That meant a NtCh could be scratched in the parking lot molesting a cat after the hunt was over, and it's how you can scratch a NTCH on tree made after hunt time runs out. Todd made an official interpretation later that it did not apply to dogs that came in to a tree late (after the judge arrives). Now before that, according to the way rules are interpreted you had to scratch the NtCh. Now you have to follow the official interpretation. That's one that I personally think they have wrong based on the wording of the rule, but it's their club and if I am honest and following the rules I have to abide by it.

There may be something going on like this with this one, but WITHOUT some wierd official interpretation in the advisor or something the only way you can interpret it is that dog B is still with the cast and you can't strike in above him because he doesn't meet the requirements of rule 7 and there are not one but 2 rules saying you can't do it.

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Posted by on 01-14-2009 04:03 PM:

But I admitt I didn't have enough attention span to read all of your first post on this thread. But it is clear to me that dogs are restruck over the dog that is the non-working dog. For instance if the non-working dog was carrying 75 strike, the other dogs would be competing for 100 even tho that would be strikong in over another dog. Rule 7 allows that. It doesn't allow you to strike in over a dog that HASN'T carried it's strike over two plussed trees or one hour of hunt time.

Posted by Dan Dogs on 01-14-2009 04:10 PM:

i can not find the word (exception) on either rule. rule 7 says dog, not dogs. so i would think one dog meets the requirement.

Posted by on 01-14-2009 04:14 PM:

I'm just driving my point home that UKC rules leave too much gray area for intepretation. You can seldom find 20 active, experienced UKC hunters to agree and interpret the rules the same way.
I don't even like the way the rules are written on the card, you can never find what you're looking for without reading the entire card. I think it would be helpful to simply have a Scoring the Tree section with all rules that apply.
There is a reason UKC has a book to officially interpret its rules. Problem is it is not readily available to everyone that enters the events.

Dog A met the nonworking dog criteria under both the 2 coon scored on, and 1 hr of hunt time elapsed while it carried 100 strike.
Dog B was on the first tree with the other 2. It was very close to being over 1 hr as well but Dog B may not have met the criteria to be considered a nonworking dog.
Dogs C & D were coondogs. Striking and treeing 3 times after being cut loose back into Dog A. Without a declining tree, under Rip's interpretation, UKC is making it much more difficult for coondogs to win the cast.

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 04:14 PM:

But, EACH dog that you strike in over must meet that requirement.

In other words rule 7 is the exception to the rules stating that you can't strike in above another dog. It is in essence saying "you can't strike in above another dog unless this happens".

With exceptions, every time you use the rule the dog that it is being applied to must meet the requirements.

So dog A can be struck in over because he is a "non working dog", he meets the requirements.

Dog B can NOT be struck in over because he is working as part of the cast.

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Posted by on 01-14-2009 04:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
i can not find the word (exception) on either rule. rule 7 says dog, not dogs. so i would think one dog meets the requirement.

That's how I read it as well.

Whenever encountering a "gray" area in UKC hunts, I think it is important to look at the intent of the rule... in this situation I feel the intent of rule 7 isn't to punish Dog B but to reward Dogs D & C for doing what they are supposed to do. Dog B happens to fall in the gray of bad breaks.
Under a decling tree, I'll strike for 25 all night, because most all the dogs will be doing the same. But without a declining tree the dogs striking and finishing tracks should get the strike pts they have coming.

Posted by Rip on 01-14-2009 04:57 PM:

It doesn't have to say "exception"

There are two rules giving you standard scoring and stating that you can not strike in above another dog.

In order to deviate from this there has to be an exception to the way you normally score dogs. Enter rule 7, it is the exception to what normally happens.

If you were to strike in above dog B you would be breaking 2 rules. The ONLY time you can break a rule is if there is an exception. Rule 7 is the exception, but dog B doesn't meet the requirements for the exception so you MUST follow the regular rules. When/if he does meet the requirements then you can strike in above him too, but until he is officially by rule a "non hunting dog" the rules to not strike above him still apply.

We do this all the time. Normally if a dog comes into the cast they are minused strike, but if they come into the cast after the judge arrives at a tree the only way they can be minused is if coon is seen and dogs are awarded plus points. That rule doesn't come out and say "exception" it is just understood that the dog has to meet the requirements (coming in after the judge arrives) and then you go to a different criteria for his strike points. We go to trees without calling dogs treed if they go back to the same tree (that's the exception). That doesn't mean that if 1 dog goes back to the same tree you can all of a sudden walk to the dog that is 100 feet lefthanded without calling him treed.

For an exception to normal scoring to occur the dog in question must meet the requirements of the exception. That's how rules are written and how they are meant to be interpreted.

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Posted by elvis on 01-14-2009 05:07 PM:

I agree with Rip on this one.
The dogs must be given next available position unless all dogs trailing fall under the nonworking dog status. Then and only then can you start a new set of strike points.

Posted by on 01-14-2009 05:08 PM:

Rip,
You're saying that under my scenario..
If Dogs A & B leap frog trees covering Dogs C & D all night, we are striking for 25 all night?
Lets say Dog A is nonworking dog, Dog B hasn't quite met the criteria yet, Dogs C & D are recast and tree covered this time by Dog A. Now we must recast again with Dog B opening. Dogs C & D again strike and finish track this time covered by Dog B.
Dogs C & D are only getting 25 strike pts all night for striking and finishing tracks?
You're saying a 1 dog could possibly strike and tree 8 separate coon, but as long as 1 dog in the cast isn't meeting the nonworking dog requirement the coondog is only getting 25 strike all night? Again, that'd be fine under a decling tree.

Posted by Clay Lautzenhiser on 01-14-2009 05:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I think Rip is correct all the way on this one.

Man I hate to admit it but I agree with RIP on this one. If the UKC ruled differently then I guess that is their option. Like RIP said the scratch rule, you know Brogy, is because of a intrepretation Todd made in 1989 or some crap. By the way, I am working on having that rule, 6 (K), revisited.

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Posted by on 01-14-2009 05:22 PM:

I'm not saying I'm right. I didn't present the question to Allen, but the judge and the MOH had both contacted him. I was told it was scored correctly.

Ignorance is bliss. The more I know, the less fun I have.

Clay, on the other topic. I wouldn't mind seeing that situation changed to where the dog would take minus for coming into the tree. I still cannot seeing scratching a dog for coming into a tree 14+ minutes after the first dog was declared treed, cast congregating and conversing, and blowing the reeds out of squallers. The dog deserved to be minused on track but not scratched... it had no part in the offgame. I like an independant dog, you saw she will pass up a slick and finish by herself with a coon. I hate a me-too dog, which is why I prefer to win and lose under declining tree rules. But when it comes to having to beat a dog to make it not cover for any reason, I'll quit. I do not care for a man-made independant hound.

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