UKC Forums - Is 100 pups too much????

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-- Is 100 pups too much???? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=219737)

Posted by Chris Herring on 02-03-2009 06:00 PM:

Daustin, you don't think they do that without the use of computers do you? Most programs that can run reports like the one they have can run similar reports using different variables.

I already volunteer my time as a Master of Hounds, Bench Show Judge, Column Writer for NCCHA, President of TSCHA in Wilson, NC, Teacher at Church, , Soccer Coach, etc...so you can see I am not against volunteering........Maybe you can help me?

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Posted by Barry Brown on 02-03-2009 11:23 PM:

roughcreek, you are way off here. I know a cross that had 4 grands out of 5 pups. The male dog they were out of never had another pup that ever made much. He never had another night ch or grand out of him in 7 years. ( and he was bred a good bit ) These dogs with 100 or 200 pups dont have enough pups on the ground to really show if they can really reproduce or not. When you have a dog that has 500 pups and shows 50 nt ch or grands he can reproduce on more than just a cross or two. You look at all the dogs that really reproduce they will show large number of pups and why will this be? Because he has shown he can reproduce. The dogs with only 100 or 150 pups have not done this. The reason these dogs only have 150 pups on the ground is they really dont reproduce much or people would be breeding many more females to him. Now I am not saying you could not find a freak in the stud pen but if he is a freak he will not stay one for long.

Posted by Maniac on 02-03-2009 11:29 PM:

MR. BROWN I DISAGREE WITH YOU. JR HAS 181 PUPS ON THE GROUND AND HE IS A REPRODUCER!!! IT TAKES MONEY FOR ADDS IT TAKES MONEY TO TRAVEL ALL OVER THE WORLD. OR JR AND HIS PUPS WOULD MAKE A SHOW!!!

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Posted by roughcreek on 02-03-2009 11:49 PM:

barry
other than the walker dogs, the other breeds just dont get them #'s very often. most of our b&t's only get 100 to 300 pups any more that make the top 10 list.

Posted by Barry Brown on 02-03-2009 11:58 PM:

Maniac, I dont know your dog but this is a fact. You dont need money if your dog reproduces. You breed females and the pups make it people will breed. Now it may take longer to get people to know about your dog but they will breed if he reproduces. There are people that will to drive to the end of the earth to breed if the stud dog will reproduce. Look at sackett jr he is was way up north and people were waiting in line to breed to him. The reason was he reproduced. You may not like what he reproduced but lots of people did. The poorest guy you know can have a dog that reproduces like old sackett jr did and people will line up to breed or someone that can push the dog will be there to buy him. maniac, you say your dog has 181 pups on the ground and he is not on the list at this time. The dog on the bottom of the list shows 8% to me that is not that good. You say your dog is a reproducer he must be under this number or he would be on the list. I guess it comes down to at what level a guy sets the bar to achieve. I set it high some others may set it much lower. I will keep setting the bar high as I think in the end the pups I raise will be better pups because of this than a man that is willing to settle for less.

Posted by Maniac on 02-04-2009 12:05 AM:

MR. BROWN IF YOU DONT RUN ADDS YOU DONT GET MUCH STUD BUSINESS. JR IS ALMOST 14 SO THEY TOOK HIM OFF THE LIST. IF SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN ME OWN JR HE WOULD OF BEEN BREED TO DEATH. THEIRS DOGS OUT OF JR THAT HAS DONE ALOT OF WINING. AND THAT HAS WON BIG IN PKC AKC UKC JR HIS SELF WAS ALSO A WINNER

Posted by Barry Brown on 02-04-2009 12:06 AM:

roughcreek, if you ever have a black dog that reproduces at the 20% level like sackett jr did you will see the number jump big time. This is what it will take. I know you like blk dogs and that is fine. The reason there are the numbers in the walker breed there are is because of the better breeding over the years and they win more that other breeds. I like walkers you like blk dogs and thats great but the numbers game comes down to what breed pleases more hunters and at this time it is the walker breed and has been for a good long time and will be for a long time to come I think.

Posted by Maniac on 02-04-2009 12:16 AM:

I ALSO FOR GOT TO MENTION MR. MARK CROSS OFFER ME A NICE JUNK OF CHANG WHEN JR WAS 6 AND I TURN IT DOWN

Posted by wayne f on 02-04-2009 12:17 AM:

ah ha a conspiracy by the walker breeders lol
i really pick a stud by what the dogs in the 3 gen ped produce.

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Posted by Barry Brown on 02-04-2009 01:10 AM:

Maniac, because you turned down a bunch of money for him does not make him a good stud dog or a reproducer. What makes him or any other dog a reproducer is what he puts on the ground. Not what someone would pay for the dog or what you or I say the dog reproduces but what he the stud dog has done in the breeding pen and thats it no ifs ands or buts that is the only thing.

Posted by Maniac on 02-04-2009 01:26 AM:

I DONT CARE WHAT ANYBODY SAID I KNOW JR IS A PROVEN REPRODUCER. EVER FEMALE THAT HAS BEEN BREED TO HIM HAS REPRODUCE GOOD PUPS. AND HE HAS BEEN BREED TO 3 FEMALE THAT WERE COON DOGS. ALL THE OTHER FEMALES COULDNT EVEN TREE A COON!!!

Posted by T.Beyer on 02-04-2009 01:39 AM:

Whose fault is that?

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Posted by Maniac on 02-04-2009 01:44 AM:

IT DOESNT BOTHER ME JR STEEL IS THE TOP REPRODUCER STATE OF INDIANA

Posted by C. Beyer on 02-04-2009 02:25 AM:

I read only the original/opening post and I personally think if anything the number should be increased.
The more Data you have the better.

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Posted by dkrause on 02-04-2009 03:46 AM:

maniac is at least partialy right..... it does take money to get people to breed to your stud. barry you say it doesnt people will come with or with out the big adds this may or may not be true i tend to disagree with it and think that though you may not need the adds to get people to breed it certainly helps. also it takes money to enroll your stud in all these stupid breed programs100-300 for ukc 800-1800 for pkc and i dont even know what akc is but either way you are looking at a min of 900 a yr thats without advertising this may not seem like alot to you barry but when you figure in all the other expenses of these things add up real quick. the dog you spoke of in one of your first posts is a local dog around here and i can tell you this about him. he has reproduced titled dogs on several different female he has been breed to mostly junk and many folks around these parts seem to be pretty happy with what they got. also he spent at least half of his stud dog life not enrolled in any performance or superstakes program and if you dont think this is HUGE try and sell a litter of pups that are not ss or performance elligable

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Posted by beachbum82 on 02-04-2009 03:52 AM:

Re: Is 100 pups too much????

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
In order for a sire to show on the top reproducers list they have to sire 100 pups. For all the off colored breeds and probably some walkers it takes a long time to get 100 pups. Most males will be way past their prime when the 100 pup mark is achieved. Who thinks this # should be reduced? And what would be a good number?

I think 100 is a fair number. If you have a stud dog that is reproducing you wont have any trouble at all breeding 15 females in two years time no matter what breed you choose to hunt.

A fellow I know had a Redbone male a few years back that was reproducing some and I know he bred at least twenty females a year and there really arent that many Redbones out there compared to everything else.

If you are hunting Walkers there are some dogs who in there hot spells were breeding 10 a month. For example: Sackett Jr.,Rat Attack, Moose, Cowee Creek Clint, and a few others.

Not taking away from anyones dog but I figure it takes around fifty pups just to tell how good one is reproducing. I mean you can get some idea from two or three litters but to really know just how a sire marks one and what traits he throws in most every litter you need a little larger pool to judge from. Just my opinion which isnt worth much.

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Posted by Nightmare10 on 02-04-2009 03:58 AM:

Matt

How can you guys ever disagree with Maniac Jr not being a great reproducer maybe even the best in IN. ??
Look at what his pups has done !!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by beachbum82 on 02-04-2009 12:43 PM:

WOW

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
IT DOESNT BOTHER ME JR STEEL IS THE TOP REPRODUCER STATE OF INDIANA

Wow! Not trying to pick fights but you better check your numbers and facts again. The percentadges show there are two that have reproduced better than him in Indiana that I know of and one is still living.

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Posted by kycooner1 on 02-04-2009 01:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Barry Brown
roughcreek, if you ever have a black dog that reproduces at the 20% level like sackett jr did you will see the number jump big time. This is what it will take. I know you like blk dogs and that is fine. The reason there are the numbers in the walker breed there are is because of the better breeding over the years and they win more that other breeds. I like walkers you like blk dogs and thats great but the numbers game comes down to what breed pleases more hunters and at this time it is the walker breed and has been for a good long time and will be for a long time to come I think.

Well if a Walker dog is throwing pups that can win,,the competition hunters buy them ,and put them in the hunts. When you sell At least 50 % of your pups to competition hunters your odds have to improve.

I know of a lot of the other 5 breeds that could win if they were put in hunts,,but pleasure hunters just won't do it.

I see a lot of pups for sale now,that states,Competition hunters only,1 reason ,Performance money,,2nd reproducers list.

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Posted by glynnsdawgs63 on 02-04-2009 02:54 PM:

producers list

I think the top producers lists should be based on hunt tests on off spring.There are a lot of dogs that have hunt titles and can't tree a coon by them selves I want dogs that can hunt ,titles don't
mean alot to me.Ability means everything, just my thoughts

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Posted by Christy on 02-04-2009 03:03 PM:

IF EVERYONE WOULD QUIT WORRYING ABOUT "OH HE'S GOT TO BE ON THE REPRODUCERS LIST" AND "OH HE'S GOT TO HAVE X AMOUNT OF TITLED PUPS BEFORE HE'S A REPRODUCER" AND LOOK AT WHAT EACH STUD IS REPRODUCING. THEN THEY'LL SEE THAT THERE ARE QUITE A FEW OUT THERE THAT ARE REPRODUCING FOOLS THAT WILL PROBABLY NEVER BE ON THE REPRODUCERS LIST.

I MEAN, WHEN YOU GO BACK AND COUNT AND OUT OF EVERY LITTER THERE ARE ONLY 1 OR 2 THAT DONT TURN OUT TO DO SOMETHING, THAT'S REPRODUCING RIGHT THERE.

REPRODUCING IS PRODUCING QUALITY OFFSPRING THAT SATISFY THEIR OWNERS WETHER IT BE PLEASURE HUNTING, COMPETITION HUNTING, BEAR HUNTING, OR WHATEVER HUNTING.

IF THE OWNER OF THE OFFSPRING IT'S SELF IS WELL SATISFIED THEN THE STUD FULFILLED HIS JOB AS A REPRODUCER.

AND ALOT OF STUD OWNERS JUST DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO NATIONALLY PROMOTE THE STUD LIKE HE COULD BE.

IF SOMEONE WITH LOADS OF MONEY HAD SID AND COULD PROMOTE HIM LIKE THESE BIGGER NAMED STUDS, HE'D BE ON THE REPRODUCERS LIST IN NO TIME.

BUT WE'RE NOT CONCERNED WITH THAT. WE KNOW WHAT WE'VE GOT AND THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS.

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Posted by K. Singletary on 02-04-2009 03:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Barry Brown
roughcreek, if you ever have a black dog that reproduces at the 20% level like sackett jr did you will see the number jump big time.

I know of 2 black dogs that reproduced at 20%. Both are dead and gone and neither had 100 pups.

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Posted by Maniac on 02-04-2009 03:45 PM:

Re: WOW

quote:
Originally posted by beachbum82
Wow! Not trying to pick fights but you better check your numbers and facts again. The percentadges show there are two that have reproduced better than him in Indiana that I know of and one is still living.

jr is the top reproducer for the last 8 years. whos the others

Posted by beachbum82 on 02-04-2009 05:44 PM:

Re: Re: WOW

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
jr is the top reproducer for the last 8 years. whos the others

Well Maniac if you look on Page 161 of the Janurary Coonhound Bloodlines in the current reproducers you will see Cowee Creek Clint is number nine on the list and is still producing pups. Last time I checked which was yesterday he is still warm and cozy in Carthage, Indiana. He has been on the Top 10 list for quite some time.

Also Gr Nite Ch Teflon Don only produced 136 pups yet he has nine titled pups off of him. That puts his rate at 6.61 percent which I know is in the ballpark of Maniac Jr. What is Maniac Jr's percent exactly?

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Posted by Maniac on 02-04-2009 06:30 PM:

Re: Re: Re: WOW

quote:
Originally posted by beachbum82
Well Maniac if you look on Page 161 of the Janurary Coonhound Bloodlines in the current reproducers you will see Cowee Creek Clint is number nine on the list and is still producing pups. Last time I checked which was yesterday he is still warm and cozy in Carthage, Indiana. He has been on the Top 10 list for quite some time.

Also Gr Nite Ch Teflon Don only produced 136 pups yet he has nine titled pups off of him. That puts his rate at 6.61 percent which I know is in the ballpark of Maniac Jr. What is Maniac Jr's percent exactly?

rigght around 12 percent.

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