UKC Forums - colored eyes ??

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-- colored eyes ?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=197832)

Posted by rmcmillan on 03-27-2012 06:01 PM:

ONLY BREED THE PRETTY DOGS THAT HUNT AND CAN TREE A COON, THAT IS A SIMPLE ANSWER. I GET TIRED OF SHOW ONLY DOGS WHO NEVER GET TURNED LOOSE IN WOODS.

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Posted by Cynthia on 03-27-2012 06:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rmcmillan
ONLY BREED THE PRETTY DOGS THAT HUNT AND CAN TREE A COON, THAT IS A SIMPLE ANSWER. I GET TIRED OF SHOW ONLY DOGS WHO NEVER GET TURNED LOOSE IN WOODS.

Well, thats your choice. if breeders would breed for what the standards say the breed should do (looks and hunt) then the owners can do what they to do with their dog. again the standard is NOT for show its for the BREED.

I may as well quit before I get pissed. Its so hard talking to brick walls.

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Posted by rmcmillan on 03-27-2012 06:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
Well, thats your choice. if breeders would breed for what the standards say the breed should do (looks and hunt) then the owners can do what they to do with their dog. again the standard is NOT for show its for the BREED.

I may as well quit before I get pissed. Its so hard talking to brick walls.

I AGREE WITH YOU BREED FOR STANDARDS. I JUST BREED FOR STANDARDS WITH DOGS THAT HUNT. IF THEY DO NOT MEET STANDARDS THEY ARE NO CONSIDERED FOR BREEDING. BUT I DO WANT THEM TO HUNT, NOT JUST SHOW. I DO BOTH WITH MINE. AND BY THE WAY UP UNTIL NOW I HAVE PRETTY MUCH AGREED WITH YOU.

Posted by l.lyle on 03-27-2012 11:33 PM:

If you like pretty dogs with an allowable blue eye or two , look at Leopards.

Posted by rmcmillan on 03-28-2012 03:53 PM:

THIS ONE KINDA DIED OUT. MAYBE FOR THE BEST. SOME DO NOT LIKE OTHERS OPINIONS. LOL.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-29-2012 01:20 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
Well, thats your choice. if breeders would breed for what the standards say the breed should do (looks and hunt) then the owners can do what they to do with their dog. again the standard is NOT for show its for the BREED.

I may as well quit before I get pissed. Its so hard talking to brick walls.

Cynthia,

As a "breeder" of coon treeing dogs, and a licensed bench show judge who keeps pretty busy judging shows, not because I go out of my way to find a show to judge, but because I'm fair, honest, and know what real conformation is all about, I can tell you that while I am "bound" to judge bench shows by the written standards...I'll be darned if I'm going to breed according to them.

I've been raising Walkers for a whole lot of years, actually enough years for the "standard" to be changed not less than four times. I started hunting in hunts when they were 3 hour events, and the same dogs that hunted at night were the ones that were shown on the bench in the evening, and the same ones that run in the field trial in the afternoon.....

I've lost interest in showing dogs myself, because my well conformed dogs are not popular show bred....and as such even though they meet the breed standards, they are not gonna win many bench shows these days against the "conformation bred" dogs...who most of them could not tree a coon in a coon zoo.

I had an extended conversation with a local bench judge a couple of months ago....and she is known on the local, state, and national show level. Now I'm not sure that she has EVER turned a dog loose after dark, but she was telling me how dogs lacking certain traits or characteristics would "break down"....My response BULL...... I had a female here that certainly had many conformation "faults".....and I hunted her for 12 years...HARD...EVERY NIGHT.....and many, many nights she broke me down....but never once, not ever did she take a lame step...break down, or did her lack of meeting the written standard for conformation EVER even slow her down.

When I was younger, I hunted birds with an Irish Setter, actually we raised pointing Irish Setters. Along came the show crowd, they started breeding Irish Setters according to a "standard"....Long flowing hair, long nose....and they got just what they wanted....however, I would venture to say that you would be VERY hard pressed to find an Irish Setter today that could find a bird, let alone know what to do with one when it DID find it. I am very concerned that our hounds could go down the same path, they have certainly been split between "show" breeding and "hunting" breeding...so pardon me if I breed a dog with a blue eye....if it trees coon, and has correct functional conformation, who really cares?

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 03-29-2012 01:27 AM:

Wow...how timely...

I wrote that whole tirade....and then found that UKC is making the following statement in ALL of it's breed standards

"All of our breed standards will now include the following introductory statement: “The goals and purposes of this breed standard include: to furnish guidelines for breeders who wish to maintain the quality of their breed and to improve it; to advance this breed to a state of similarity throughout the world; and to act as a guide for judges. Breeders and judges have the responsibility to avoid any conditions or exaggerations that are detrimental to the health, welfare and soundness of this breed, and must take the responsibility to see that these are not perpetuated. Any departure from the following should be considered a fault, and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work.”

So...having read that... a light colored eye may or may not be a "fault" if so spelled out in the breed standard...but in NO WAY will a light colored eye affect the health, welfare of the dog, or the dog's ability to perform it's traditional work!

So...there you have it.....

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Posted by Blackwater Pete on 03-29-2012 01:31 AM:

Not turning this into a pkc vs ukc thing but you ever look at some of the dogs that win in pkc with the crooked front legs doing it night in and night out hunting up to 2 rounds a night.

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Posted by Cynthia on 03-29-2012 02:59 AM:

Joe,

so glad you got that off your chest. but, as a bench show judge myself and a breeder/owner/handler of blueticks, my standards state "no eye color lighter than light brown". It may not affect the dog in any way, shape or form, but for blueticks, a blue eye is not standard and if shown to me will be judge accordingly.

thanks for your opinion.

Posted by l.lyle on 03-29-2012 04:41 AM:

Mr. is full Leopard and his mamma and his daddy are brown eyed.

Frank is a half breed walker and Leopard , not registered.

But his uncle is full Leopard.

I call it putting the evil eye on him cause when they tree you can get behind them and lay the rifle on their head and point where they are looking .Then squal to get a glimpse of a coons eye. LOL

Posted by rmcmillan on 03-29-2012 03:41 PM:

ALOT OF GOOD POINTS. I WILL BREED FOR STANDARDS BUT I STILL WANT DOGS THAT KNOW HOW TO HUNT. I DO NOT WANT BLUE EYES IN MY BREEDING.

AS FAR AS SHOW DOGS, I DO SHOW MINE. SOME WIN SOME DO NOT. BUT I HAVE FUN. THEY ARE THE SAME ONES I HUNT. NOT A NATIONAL OR WORLD CHAMP AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL HAVE ONE. BUT ONE THING IS FOR SURE IF MY DOG WON THE WORLD SHOW, I WOULD WANT THE WORLD HUNT NEXT. JUST THINK PRETTY DOGS COVERED WITH MUD, BRIARS, TRACKING COALLARS AND DOG SMELL!!!.

WAS AT A SHOW A FEW YEARS AGO IN PA. ONE OF THE TOP SHOW DOGS IN THE COUNTRY AT THAT TIME WAS THERE. IT WON THE SHOW, VERY GOOD LOOKING WALKER. THEY WERE HAVING A TREEING CONTEST WITH LIVE COON SHE NEVER PAID ATTENTION TO IT. THEY HAD A COON SKINNING DEMOMNSTRATION FOR THE YOUTH AND THE COON WAS HANGING 6' FROM HER WHILE SHE WAS ON BENCH GETTING PHOTOS TAKEN, SHE NEVER EVEN TRIED TO SMELL IT. I DO NOT KNOW IF SHE WAS HUNTED OR NOT. BUT I DOUBT IT. THAT IN MY OPINION IS A WASTE OF A GOOD HOUND. AND I WOULD NOT WANT IT IN MY BREEDING PROGRAM.

Posted by john Duemmer on 03-29-2012 08:46 PM:

I got a simple fix...... Since all these show people keep telling us how they hunt these beauty queens lets make them prove it and pass a hunt test before they can be put on the bench. Last i looked ability and intelligence are also part of the standard so lets see how many of these national level show dogs truly meet a breed standard that requires them to do what they are bred to do.
I suspect it would get pretty lonely at the top.

Breed for ability and the rest will take care of itself.

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Posted by bubbasullivan on 03-29-2012 09:13 PM:

i told myself i wasnt getting in this B.S. but i cant stand all the HTX crap! some people are unable to hunt due to health issues or just lack of hunting area. telling me my showdog has to pass a htx is about as useful as me telling you that your dog must meet breed standards before entering a hunt! there are different strokes for different folks. always has been, always will be.

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Posted by MikeR on 03-29-2012 09:24 PM:

Breed Standards according to Show People

Show people are very well versed in breed standards when it comes to the conformation aspects of a hound yet in almost all cases they seem to forget that the breed CHARACTERISTICS are part of the standard.

They're real quick to condem a hunter who's dog may have a fault by the breed conformation standards but they have no qualms about breeding show dogs who in many cases do not meet the breed characteristics.

B&T breed characteristics: Active, fast, bright, kind, confident and courageous, with open trailing and treeing instinct and ability.

Leopard: The American Leopard Hound is an all-purpose tree dog, noted for stamina and the ability to withstand all extremes of temperature. This breed is noted for its extreme desire to please, which makes it an easy
dog to train. They can handle a cold track and still be under the voice control of the handler. They are open trailers with a very strong desire to stay on track. They excel in their ability to hold game at bay without getting injured. Although they have been bred and used for all varieties of small game, the American Leopard Hound is also outstanding on big
game such as bear and cougar.

Bluetick: The Bluetick is active, ambitious and speedy on the trail. It should be a free tonguer on trail, with a bawl, squall, chop or bugle voice when striking and trailing, with a distinct changeover on tree of bawling, chopping, or combination of both, and be willing to be hospitable
to both men and dogs which are around them.

English:Pleasant and sociable, with strong hunting instincts.
Voice is a good hound bawl.

Plott:This breed is active, fast, bright, kind, confident and courageous. They are vicious fighters on game, have a super treeing instinct and take readily to water. They are alert and quick to learn. Voice is open trailing, bawl and chop.

Redbone: This breed is characterized by its pleading eyes and “sweet” voice. They have a natural treeing instinct and make excellent water dogs. They are even tempered and affectionate with a strong desire to please.

Treeing Walker:Energetic, intelligent, active, courteous, composed, confident, fearless and kind. This breed has a super abundance of sense and is capable of great endurance. Excellent trailing, hunting and treeing instinct and ability. Voice is preferably a clear, ringing bugle or a steady, clear chop. Noticeable change in voice at tree.

Lets not let UKC hounds go down the same road as AKC hunting and working breeds have gone. Hounds were created for and should be bred for hunting ability 1st and foremost. If you want a show dog buy a Pekinese or Poodle.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 03-30-2012 01:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by bubbasullivan
i told myself i wasnt getting in this B.S. but i cant stand all the HTX crap! some people are unable to hunt due to health issues or just lack of hunting area. telling me my showdog has to pass a htx is about as useful as me telling you that your dog must meet breed standards before entering a hunt! there are different strokes for different folks. always has been, always will be.

I cant understand why someone that either cant or just chooses not to hunt would choose a hunting breed to own and show? And i think your idea of STANDARD is lacking the important part which is brains and ability.

Read your breed standard and you will notice that they address things other than conformation. If they are not hunted how on earth can any of you say they meet the breed standard.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 03-30-2012 01:35 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I cant understand why someone that either cant or just chooses not to hunt would choose a hunting breed to own and show? And i think your idea of STANDARD is lacking the important part which is brains and ability.

Read your breed standard and you will notice that they address things other than conformation. If they are not hunted how on earth can any of you say they meet the breed standard.

i dont understand the whole argument.there are 600 dogs that
show up to hunt and 50 show dogs so who makes or suggest
the standards.

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Posted by Bob Hennessey on 03-30-2012 07:33 PM:

Question for you people that think any light eyed dog or off colored dog should be neutered or spay so they can't reproduce. Dogs that have shown to produce these types of dogs, do you think should be neutered or spay so not to be able to reproduce? If so how about----

FINLEY RIVER CHIEF. I had a top light eyed off colored dog from him. Chief, was known to produce light colored eyed dogs and to this day people say he is responsible for the slate(blue-grey) colored dogs. Should he have been nutered when this trait was discovered? Where would the Finley River dogs be today without Chief?

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