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-- Here's a rule question for ya??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=181896)

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Originally posted by masterd1976
Off game is off game dead or alive.

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Mike Gibson

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Originally posted by Gibbo
That's nuts in that case you have to minus a dog for catching a coon on the ground. The dog has quit tracking and according to you guys you can't plus him.

I guess should breed slow track dogs

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Originally posted by Gibbo
You can't minus a dog for off game in a situation where you wouldn't plus him in the same situation if it were a coon

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No I didn't teach him that.
He's not saying that if your dogs finds a road kill coon that you should plus it he's saying that if you know that the dogs caught a coon on the ground that the strike gets plussed. Anyone that has hunted in the hunts at all should know this its only common sence that the dog gets the benifit of the dought.

I'm curious to hear how these situations were scored and if they were done properly.

I heard of a cast where dogs where all dogs were struck and treed, on the way to the tree the cast hears a squabble. When cast arrives 3 dogs are treed with a sow coon only about 15 ft up looking down on the dogs and 1 dog is under the tree with very young kitten coon (eyes weren't even open yet) in its mouth. How should that be scored? I think I know the answer but I doubt that it was scored properly.

I guess the whole thing is on the dead coon is this. Every one can tell if the dogs had just ran it down caught it and killed. Still limp fresh blood. Steam coming off of it, That would be the same as rule states, plus strike points.
But if you smeel the coon before you see it, hard as brick well that is a minus for quiting his track.
Unless the coon came out of the tree the dogs were treed on. There better still be one in that tree. Or direct route to the tree he came from to where the dogs were tree'ed.

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Patrick Lunsford
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Ben

I remember something about this. Maybe Mike was on one of these casts? What was the ruling?

Just to ad some fuel to the fire. What about a cast that treed a dead coon stuck in a hole in the tree? Did this once. Coon was frozen stiff. Luckly we were pleasure huntin.

The second question is easy. Coon has to be in a place of refuge. When you saw the coon he was on the ground. Plus strike only.

First question has to use some common sence. Delete.

Ben

I heard you lost your huntin buddy again. Dang hilljacks LOL

scoring

I'm not sure if either situation was handled correctly, but will give you the master of hounds final ruling as for both situations was questioned.

1st situation was in the spring, warming temperatures but still some snow on the ground. Judge deleted the dog with the coon, cause majority agreed coon had been dead. Of course handler argued that his dog wouldn't mess with a coon that had been dead, and coon must have been weak and sick is why he looked so old. And of course he questioned. Master of Hounds plussed his strike, said there was no "sure" way to say the coon had been dead unless it was decayed. Scoring didn't change the cast winner so issue went no farther than master of hounds.

2nd situation--Judge and all other cast members agreed it was bad luck, but too only plus the strike of the two dogs treed. Every thing was fine tell dog 3 come treed and was called. Cast arrives to "same tree" where other two dogs were treed on before the coon fight. Judge says dog is to be scored. Another coon is seen in this tree, judge throws a plus both ways to the dog. A handler questions the call saying can't score same tree where dogs were handled at prior. Master of Hounds ruled in favor of plussing the dog as for the tree had yet to be scored.

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989-529-8563

Re: Ben

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Originally posted by STROKIN
I heard you lost your huntin buddy again. Dang hilljacks LOL

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989-529-8563

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Originally posted by Donnie Jackson
No I didn't teach him that.
He's not saying that if your dogs finds a road kill coon that you should plus it he's saying that if you know that the dogs caught a coon on the ground that the strike gets plussed. Anyone that has hunted in the hunts at all should know this its only common sence that the dog gets the benifit of the dought.

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Re: Ben

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Originally posted by STROKIN
I remember something about this. Maybe Mike was on one of these casts? What was the ruling?

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989-529-8563

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Originally posted by masterd1976
The fact of a matter is unless you see the dog kill the coon you can not be 100% sure that it was not already dead. Could have ran a track right by a dead one and stopped on it. Who knows. But I know you can NOT score a dead coon period...

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989-529-8563

here's the thing to that one ben it says the same tree can not be scored twice i don't see anything about the same coon.

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Originally posted by masterd1976
The fact of a matter is unless you see the dog kill the coon you can not be 100% sure that it was not already dead. Could have ran a track right by a dead one and stopped on it. Who knows. But I know you can NOT score a dead coon period...

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Mike Gibson

Rule 3 b

States that if dog catches coon plus strike only. PERIOD

It doesn't say that the you penalize that dog if he kills the coon before you get there

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Mike Gibson

I was on a cast where dogs were treed and a coon was seen about 10 feet off the ground so tree was scored as plus. One dog went back to same tree and was struck. A fight broke out and cast went to tree. The same coon had come down and dog was fighting him on the ground. Dog's strike points were plussed. We led dog away and recast him. He went back and was struck back in and treed again. The coon had climbed another tree right next to where he had been caught on ground. Dog got plus strike and tree points for treeing coon in first tree, strike points for catching same coon on ground and then plus strike and tree for treeing same coon in a different tree. The dog got 475+ on the same coon. The other three dogs had been taught not to go back to the same tree so they had left the country while all of this was going on.

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Originally posted by Brian V
If you can score on a old dead coon, then I think i'm gonna lay some dead coons in my woods and show my dog where they are, then guide at a hunt. Should be easy. Thanks for the tip

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Mike Gibson

This stuff about "you can't prove it" and "you need to be 100%sure" have no place in nite hunts. Fact is, many things that happen in a nite hunts cannot be proven and proof is not required which is probably why nothing in the rule book ever required prove or that we be 100% sure. Much of judgeing a nite hunt DOES require good judgement backed up by the cast votes. In a situation like the first one, the judges desicion, backed up by the majority cast vote should never have been overturned by a MOH that didn't even see the coon. His explaination that you couldn't be 100% sure was not supported by anything in the rulebook I bet it would have never been supported by UKC on a formal complaint.

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Originally posted by JiM
This stuff about "you can't prove it"

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989-529-8563

I had my dog have 1st strike , run a track for about a 100yds & get treed by herself. Went into the tree & it was a big hollow den with a dead coon laying in the bottom of it. This was in the dead of winter up at the Laingsburg club. The coon was not at all rotten. I was judging & circled the tree. I feel I did the right thing & it did cost me the cast win.Always wondered how others would have scored it.

I can think of at least 4 times right off the top of my head where the cast I was on scored a dead coon. Of course in all of those situations it was in a cornfield and the dogs were screaming at him and you could hear the fight break out. We arrived to find the dogs playing tug of war with the coon each time. I figured it was common sense knowing that a dead coon couldn't have given the dogs a chase like that. Is there a rule stating you have to see the coon alive or you can't plus it?

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Kyle Hough

Iowa State Coon Hunters Website: www.iowacoonhunters.com
ISCHA on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/IowaStateCoonHunters

Cornbelt; "Is there a rule stating you have to see the coon alive or you can't plus it?" [/B][/QUOTE]

Not in any rulebook that I have ever read

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Mike Gibson

You have to use good judgement.

#1 If the coon appears to have just been kilt, plus the strike. Coon hides, coon with rotten smell, froze stiff is minus for quitting a track.

#2 You need to see a coon in the tree. If you see it after the time has started two feet above the dogs and just before it jumps you will get both tree and strike plus. My judgement would be you score the tree since the hounds had been treed and handled, not the coon on the ground. If the only coon seen is on the ground you should get minus points for a slick tree or circled if possible.


Do you scratch a nt ch for eating on a deer carcass where most of the bones were cleaned off from coyotes? There was also a oppossum not two feet away getting his share. The opposum wasn't harmed and was still eating. You could make a case of murder but not molesting. I wish I could have got a picture of the Gr Nt and the oppossum eating a deer carcass.

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Originally posted by blueticker
You have to use good judgement.

#1 If the coon appears to have just been kilt, plus the strike. Coon hides, coon with rotten smell, froze stiff is minus for quitting a track.

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quote:

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Originally posted by blueticker
You have to use good judgement.

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EAT MORE POSSUM
Brian Verseman 317-512-8686