UKC Forums - breeding son to dam is this to close

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-- breeding son to dam is this to close (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=163478)

Posted by mjflores on 08-15-2007 11:50 PM:

whats too loose eyes?....

somebody on here got a hound that it's eye's keep poppin out?

Posted by Oak Ridge on 08-16-2007 12:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by anscox
I wouldn't try one that close, horse people did it many years ago religiously and that is how HYPP developed. HORRIBLE to have a horse go out that way, but very common with the Impressive bloodline due to close in-breeding such as this. In-breeding does maginify the good traits, but also the bad. If there are ANY faults with either dog that you don't like plan on them to be worse with their pups.

I'm considering doing a 1/2 brother and sister cross next year, but waited this heat cycle on the girl so I can think about it some more and give the dogs a year to see if they are really that good, or if breeding outside that line wouldn't work better.

Anscox,

Impressive was not a result of inbreeding, it was a GENETIC MUTATION. There is a vast difference between the effects of inbreeding and mutation. There was absolutley NO record of HPPY before Impressive, and every single HPPY positive horse on the planet traces back to that ONE ANIMAL......

You could breed HPPY negative horses to each other for generations and generations....and you would NEVER GET ANOHTER HPPY positive, or carrier animal for thosands of generations.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by BRYAN J on 08-16-2007 01:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mjflores
whats too loose eyes?....

somebody on here got a hound that it's eye's keep poppin out?

Talking about loose eye lids. I've seen this in some big hounds. Just like someone said on here if you inbreed dogs that have problems chances are better to have that in the off spring. Im sure there are some out there and good hounds like Perry V. said.

__________________
Bryan J.

SAVE THE COON, HUNT WITH A HOUND!

Posted by jodaviess1 on 08-16-2007 01:19 AM:

TERRY WARRESONS TRAPPER DOG

TRAPPER WAS OUT OF A BROTHER SISTER CROSS. DAVE SAID TERRY TOOK HIM HOME IN A SHOEBOX IF I REMEMBER RIGHT AND BOTTLE FED HIM.DON'T RECALL WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MOTHER.
TRAPPER WAS NOT THE PRETTIEST THING TO LOOK AT, BUT WAS A COONDOG THAT THREW COONDOGS AND IT WAS BELIEVED THAT HE REPRODUCED SO WELL BECAUSE OF THE TIGHT BREEDING AND ALL THE GOOD STUFF UP CLOSE BEHIND THIS TIGHT BRED CROSS. PERRY

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Blue Dog 1

Posted by Fairchildfarms on 08-16-2007 02:39 AM:

Heres a full brother x sister cross, I didn't make the cross and have no idea if any of his littermates are doing anything, but with what I see in him, I'd have no problem with making the cross again.

pedigree
----------------------------grntch manns wild-n-blue spanky
------------------grntch manns wild-n-blue-spankyII
----------------------------Lingo's c.c. blue nell
------------grch s/w michigan brave heart
---------------------------grch grntch levi's northern blue bingo
------------------wadworth's topgun blue shadow
---------------------------wadsworth's blue topgun lady
Yankee's Back-n-Black
---------------------------grntch manns wild-n-blue spanky
------------------grntch manns wild-n-blue-spankyII
---------------------------Lingo's c.c. blue nell
------------grch wolverines misty shadow
---------------------------grch grntch levi's northern blue bingo
------------------wadworth's topgun blue shadow
---------------------------wadsworth's blue topgun lady

Posted by Hawk32 on 08-16-2007 03:11 AM:

Very interesting seeing all the different opions. Probably not a right or wrong answer. I've been kicking around this idea for a while know with my two littermates. I've always thought they would compliment each other very well. Someday I might actually do it.

Here's what the pups ped would look like.

......................NT CH Dryfork Blue Spud
..............NT CH Smokey River Jb's Chief
......................Smokey River BB's Jbell
........FCH GR CH GR NT CH Vining's Runnin Bullet
......................GR NT CH Coz's Sparetime Spanky
..............CH GR NT CH Smokey River Crazy's Blue Fly
......................CH NT CH Rob's Crazy
GR NT CH Thorson's Tree'n Blue Dutch
.....................CH GR Nt CH Russ's Tree'n Blue Luke
..............Nt CH GR CH Franzen's Blue Snuggles
.....................NT CH Franzen's Blue Cindy
..........NT CH Thorson's Sweet Blue Lace
.....................Nt CH Franzen's Blue Blaze
..............GR Nt CH CH Menne's True Blue Suzie
.....................Nt CH Franzen's Blue Dutches

Pups

......................NT CH Dryfork Blue Spud
..............NT CH Smokey River Jb's Chief
......................Smokey River BB's Jbell
........FCH GR CH GR NT CH Vining's Runnin Bullet
......................GR NT CH Coz's Sparetime Spanky
..............CH GR NT CH Smokey River Crazy's Blue Fly
......................CH NT CH Rob's Crazy
GR NT CH Thorson's Sweet Blue Brandy
.....................CH GR Nt CH Russ's Tree'n Blue Luke
..............Nt CH GR CH Franzen's Blue Snuggles
.....................NT CH Franzen's Blue Cindy
........NT CH Thorson's Sweet Blue Lace
.....................Nt CH Franzen's Blue Blaze
..............GR Nt CH CH Menne's True Blue Suzie
.....................Nt CH Franzen's Blue Dutches

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Grand Nite CH CH Thorson's Tree'n Blue Dutch RIP
Grand Nite CH CH Thorson's Sweet Blue Brandy RIP
Grand Nite Ch Dutch and janes blue Girl

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Posted by BRYAN J on 08-16-2007 04:42 AM:

Yeah there are alot of opinions. Never know I guess. Just take the plunge and try it.

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Bryan J.

SAVE THE COON, HUNT WITH A HOUND!

Posted by redtickhunterDG on 08-16-2007 04:58 AM:

I would rather it be a Uncle,Nice cross. but some of the greats came from crosses like that ......but (you knew that was coming)you had better not be scared to have a bone pile behind the barn because some will be not worth the lead it takes to end it. This type of breeding will bring results will many years trails and tribulation and careful study. I hope it works out for you.

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littleosageenglish@Gmail.com

Posted by Hawk32 on 08-16-2007 06:32 AM:

I think uncle/niece cross is pretty common and has been very successful. I would say father/daughter or mother/son is probably justifiable if the traits you desire are there but littermates might just be over the top. Who knows though, accidents have happened before.lol

Posted by Dan Edwards on 08-16-2007 02:02 PM:

anscox

Genetically speaking, the half bro/sis cross is the same thing as the father/daughter and the mother/son cross. Just wanted to let you know that partner.

What I mean is that it has the same inbreeding coefficient and is most definately not too close. Inbreeding is a great tool and if you gentlemen have a great dog or gyp I suggest you do it so as to not lose him or her. Just keep going with it or you will regret it in the end. When breeding birds we have gone all the way to 15/16th that I can remember. I am sure some folks have went even further. Breed hard, cull hard gents.

Posted by richtaber on 08-16-2007 02:42 PM:

Keith Medley's Homer dog is a result of Skuna River Fred accidently breeding his mother. This time it worked. I would tend to be leery of doing this too often however. I had an accidental full brother/sister cross of two young Buck Creek hounds last summer, I gave the four pups away as pets to my students at school. With much attention and expensive vet bills lavished on them, two died at young ages with heart problems. I felt a little guily; people incurring vet bills evedn though they got the dogs for free. I have seen certain strains that have been what I would call too close bred for generations, and it shows in high strung, nervous, unhealthy dogs. I guess the moral of the story is, try it, if it works, ok. If not, you will be the wiser for the experience.

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Upstate Hillbilly

Posted by Oak Ridge on 08-16-2007 02:55 PM:

Re: anscox

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Edwards
Genetically speaking, the half bro/sis cross is the same thing as the father/daughter and the mother/son cross. Just wanted to let you know that partner.

What I mean is that it has the same inbreeding coefficient and is most definately not too close. Inbreeding is a great tool and if you gentlemen have a great dog or gyp I suggest you do it so as to not lose him or her. Just keep going with it or you will regret it in the end. When breeding birds we have gone all the way to 15/16th that I can remember. I am sure some folks have went even further. Breed hard, cull hard gents.

Dan,

I don't want to argue on this man's post....but your statements are not entirely true.... The COI of inbreeding is most certainly higher on a father X Daughter cross than it is for a half brother half sister cross.

I ran some models of some breedings of the dogs in my kennels. The COI of the half brother X half sister crosses run a COI of about 16% to 19%. If I take a daughter and cross back on her sire, I get a COI of 31% to 36%.

I will say it again, it's only too close if you have imperfect individuals to start with.

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by SilverCreek on 08-16-2007 03:15 PM:

I'VE TALKED TO 3 MEN WHO I WOULD CONSIDER MASTER BREEDERS AND ALL HAVE HAD EXCELLENT RESULTS FROM FULL FAMILY CROSSES. WHY DO I SAY MASTER BREEDERS,BECAUSE THEY HAD THE FORSIGHT TO FOLLOW THEIR INSINCT AND THE RESULTS WERE EXCEPTIONAL. WHY DO SOME GET SO HUNG UP ON BEING CLOSE. HAVE YA EVER CHECKED OUT A RACE HORSE PED, OR A COWS PED. CATTLE ARE FAMILY BRED ALL THE TIME FOR GENETIC REASONS, MOSTLY FOR THE GENTIC TRANSMITTERS THAT REPRODUCE THAT AWESOME COW OR HORSE. DO YOU FOR 1 MINUTE THINK A WOLF COYOTE OR FOX ASK IF THEIR RELATED BEFORE THEY BREED. HOW MANY DEER HUNTERS WANT A SCRUBBY SPIKE BREEDIN DOES NONE AROUND HERE. THEY WANT OLD MOSSY HORN BREEDIN AND HOW MANY OF HIS OWN DAUGHTERS IS HE BREEDIN, HOPEFULLY A PILE. THE CROSS WITH OPPY AND HIS DAUGHTER MAGGIE WILL BE MADE AGAIN, WHY BECAUSE I HUNTED WITH THE SON OUT OF THE CROSS AND WAS MORE THAN IMPRESSED. WE JUST FINISHED MAGGIE BUT SHE'LL BE BRED THIS WINTER. FOR ME IT'S ABOUT KEEPIN WHAT I GOT AND REPRODUCING IT. I ALSO FEEL THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER MADE THESE CROSSES DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO GIVE AN HONEST REPLY. BREED WHAT YOU WANT IF IT MAKES YA HAPPY AND IF IT WORKS LET ME KNOW IF IT DON'T LET ME KNOW, BUT YOU WON'T KNOW IF YA DON'T TRY IT...... LATER CHARLIE

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Run 'em up, Blow 'em down, it's all about the wood ~ Silver Creek Kennels

Posted by Dan Edwards on 08-16-2007 03:15 PM:

i dont want to argue either

I dont want to argue either but the inbreeding coefficients are affected by each and every dog in your dogs pedigree not just what came last. It is almost impossible for half wits like us(just kidding, i am the only half wit)to figure them out. The tightest form of inbreeding you can do is bro/sis and then father/daughter or mother/son which is the same genetically speakin as half bro/sis.

Posted by Hiphop on 08-16-2007 03:24 PM:

The ICO seems to me is just an educated guess. For instance, if you make a half brother X half daughter cross the pups get 50% from each parent. The question is what genes did the pups get? The parents also recieved half from each parent.

Genes are in pairs. The parents pass on some from thier sire and some from thier dam. Without knowing which genes the dogs recievd you really don't know how genetically similar they are.

Posted by Dan Edwards on 08-16-2007 03:26 PM:

generically speakin

After rethinking what I wrote I am gonna have to back up and think about it again. I am not too sure I was correct anymore I am actually tryin to figure it out again which could take a while partner.

Posted by Hiphop on 08-16-2007 03:38 PM:

Re: i dont want to argue either

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Edwards
I dont want to argue either but the inbreeding coefficients are affected by each and every dog in your dogs pedigree not just what came last. It is almost impossible for half wits like us(just kidding, i am the only half wit)to figure them out. The tightest form of inbreeding you can do is bro/sis and then father/daughter or mother/son which is the same genetically speakin as half bro/sis.

if you get 50% from each parent a full brother full sister cross would look like this.

Two dogs are bred AB X CD

The pups can be AC, AD, BC, BD

Then if you breed the pups you can get

AB, AC, AD, BC BD, CD, AA, BB, CC, DD, 16 different possibilites I believe.

If you breed a father daughter. the daughter got 50% from its sire.

AB X AC, not as many possible combinations. AA, AC,BA,BC.

Posted by Dan Edwards on 08-16-2007 03:42 PM:

yep

I was wrong again. Not uncommon but the only point I want to get across is that I have inbred quite a bit and it dont hurt a **** thing in my opinion. Just pay attention and weed out if need be. You may have to kill of an entire litter if it dont jive just right but so be it. You tried and failed, next time you may try and succeed.

Posted by Hiphop on 08-16-2007 03:48 PM:

Re: yep

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Edwards
Just pay attention and weed out if need be. You may have to kill of an entire litter if it dont jive just right but so be it. You tried and failed, next time you may try and succeed.

In my opinion thats more important than all the science bull I just typed out. You can't replace your experience.

Posted by WOODNBADGEAGAIN on 08-16-2007 04:33 PM:

Re: breeding son to dam is this to close

quote:
Originally posted by ky_walker_man_x
would you try it are not. if yes or no please tell me y

MOST OF THE CITIZENS OF KENTUCKY ARE BRED THIS WAY

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CURING YOUR HOUND DEFECTS...ONE SHELL AT A TIME

Posted by Oak Ridge on 08-16-2007 04:50 PM:

Re: i dont want to argue either

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Edwards
I dont want to argue either but the inbreeding coefficients are affected by each and every dog in your dogs pedigree not just what came last. It is almost impossible for half wits like us(just kidding, i am the only half wit)to figure them out. The tightest form of inbreeding you can do is bro/sis and then father/daughter or mother/son which is the same genetically speakin as half bro/sis.

Dan,

I'm only 1/4 witted, that is why I have a computer program to calculate the COI for me..... the cool thing about that is if you are careful in how you set up the pedigree database, it will calculate ALL of the common ancestors back to 10 generations. It keeps track of siblings and half siblings...so it's normally very accurate as far as a COI percentage goes.

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Hiphop on 08-16-2007 05:04 PM:

What benefit is the ICO to coonhounds anyway??????????

Posted by Oak Ridge on 08-16-2007 05:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hiphop
What benefit is the ICO to coonhounds anyway??????????

On it's own....without taking anything else into consideration...NONE AT ALL....simple as that.

Here is the way I see the COI. COI is a mathematical calculation that expresses the percentage of inbreeding. That's it....

Now, if you take a set of traits...lets use one that is easily recognizable and easy to follow, voice quality....and you take a female from a sire that has the perfect hound voice that you always wanted in a dog.

The only way to use the COI in breeding coon hounds is to take a relative (uncle, half-brother, sire etc) that has the EXACT SAME VOCAL QUALITY and make that cross. By taking the offspring of that cross, and line breeding, or inbreeding ONLY THE DOGS THAT HAVE THE EXACT SAME VOCAL QUALITY again, you are increasing the COI, and at the same time you are INCREASING THE PROBABILITY of the pups out of that litter having the chosen vocal style.

Over a series of generations, you should be able to predict the vocal quality of every pup out of this type of breeding program.

As you stack the COI, you are also stacking the odds of getting a dog with the voice you are looking for out of any one mating....

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by highyellerdog on 08-16-2007 09:06 PM:

Re: Re: breeding son to dam is this to close

quote:
Originally posted by WOODNBADGEAGAIN
MOST OF THE CITIZENS OF KENTUCKY ARE BRED THIS WAY

Hey now!

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Posted by reddogg68 on 08-16-2007 09:30 PM:

breeding

The best litter I have raised was from a father daughter cross by accident.The dogs were like the parents as the good qualities and bad qualities were magnified.It worked that time but I dont plan on doing it again.There are too many good studs everywhere to use.Also a friend of mine calls these dogs amish dogs.

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