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-- Elimination style for the nationals (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=160416)

So you think you have a better chance of getting your name drawn from a hat then getting drawn out to a good running spot. The dogs that have won their cast and brought in a high score have proven that they can bring in a high score. What if you went to 1 spot and ran 2 rabbits you are the cast winner with 800 points your dog got all 1st strikes and all 1st lines (no checks ran good not a whole lot of rabbits but your dog did it right, My cast went out and ran 2 rabbits but I came back in with a lower score we had checks no 1 dog dominated the cast. is it just as fair to pull my dog out of a hat and send yours home? I say you have just as good a chance as anyone to draw a "honeyhole" so why would it be more fair to draw from a hat. In my opinion you are more likely to get the best dogs from score then a hat.

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How about this. There is a program on disc for drawing casts, registered, champions and grands. It seperates more then one dog entered by the same handlers into seperate casts. A printout can be made also. It works great for big hunts where you have alot of entrys. You can also use it to pick your guides and judges. Just some food for thought. If I know how to use it, I'm sure anyone could use it.

alvie

If what your saying is true... A really good dog turns every rabbit into 400pts.... Is that right? What about the really good dog that had to put up with cold trialing and or rough running to put up 500-600 points? Your chances would be alot better being drawed out of the hat. How many spots you figure they use each year up there have never produced a second round dog? I can't speak for anyone else but myself.... I've been in 5 cast.... 4 i've won and none of they has produced a second rounder.

I'm not claiming anyone is cheating or anything... I'm saying with a drawing of all first round cast winners atleast every cast winner has the same chance. I'm gonna use Scott for my example (Scott, i'm using you just because you're already looking at this post so don't take it personal). Lets say at nationals (under the current system) Scott (Local) and myself (Out Of Towner Judge) both win our cast with plus points, who do you think has a better chance of going on? To say with both has the same chance of going on is wrong. Atleast if you put all names in the hat and draw out your final 16 each cast winner would have the same chance.

Jack

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It's seems from reading this post that the concerns come from the method the spots are chosen more than the number of dogs returning.

I believe choosing the guides and the spots prior to drawing would help eliminate the perception that the spots are being manipulated to give some people an advantage. Also, if you have guides who "can't guide" then go ahead and grab a non-hunting judge but send them to the same spot they were going to originally.

I have never been to this event but may come this year as a spectator. However, some of the comments made on this thread by some of the people defending the current way of doing things, cause me to hesitate ever entering a dog in this event. It appears the playing field is not level and it should be for a National event.

Maybe I'll see otherwise if I get a chance to go this year and I'll hold any final judgment until I see it with my own eyes.

Guides

I don't know where some of you guys live but around here most farmers don't want a bunch of strangers running around their farm. You can't just send casts anywhere.
You can't say cast 1 will go to smith's even if his son in law doesn't show up to guide.
If we had more of an elimination style I don't think cast would have to travel as far to try to get big score. So we could have an earlier deadline, to get cast back out. I am in favor of it. I guide casts usually every round, whatever the club needs so lets hunt them all.
But I totally disagree anyone has ever been intentionally sent to a bad spot. Don't believe that happens. Some times it easy to sit back and complain about guides, but try getting in the hot seat and organizing an event of this size.
I hate the idea of drawing winners out of a hat.

From an outsider looking in,My thoughts. If you have a lottery to get to the finals .You might as well have a lottery to see who wins and save everbody the gas and time of going to the hunt. Did you ever consider that if you did not get big scores from a spot it might be the way the pack was running,or the rabbits just were not co operating that day.Their is a lot of luck involved in haveing a good hunt . Some days the stars align and some days they don't. Be glad that their are people that are willing to do all the work to set one of these big events up. Go have a good time and thank all the clubs for the work that they do so you can run your dog .

I think if there is a way to make the Nationals elimination style would be great If it is possible and would continue to produce the same popularity as it currently does. As long as it doesn't effect people wanting to handle dogs in the show and so on. I think with the number of members in the surrounding clubs along with the amount of public hunting grounds available it should be possible as long as everyone is well aware of the fact that the public hunting in the area are pretty good running this is something that alot of people don't take advantage of right now so they are driving 2 hours back to they're backyards because they know they have good running there and need a big score.
If the hunt were to become elimination style and 2 good tracks would suffice and you could still advance then many more areas would open up and more people could guide.

re?

quote:

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Originally posted by S Fluhart
I say its going good the way it is and "IF IT AIN'T BROKE....DON'T FIX IT. Just keep coming and sooner or later you'll get drawn to a honey hole ...... Just pray you've got the dog power enough to win your cast when you do.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Albert Fulton
If you have a lottery to get to the finals .You might as well have a lottery to see who wins and save everbody the gas and time of going to the hunt.

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Do you guys run elimination style hunt in your local events? If not why?
Could it be because of the work involved? Imagine doing it for the Nationals in all 3 classes, it would be a nightmare. Also you probably would be looking to replace Fluhart if it happens. Scott hats off to ya, 400 dogs in 1 weekend and a handfull of complaints must mean your doing a good job!!!

If everybody wants it to be elimination style then why dont your clubs support this format at the local hunts and make them elimination style. I can probably count on one hand how many clubs have elimination style events. Show the UKC that we all are supporting this type of format by holding it at your local hunts and then maybe the UKC will see where you stand and will be willing to try and change.

Scott you all do an outstanding job at this event. I can only imagine what goes into it. By the way, can I have a honey hole this year? LOL I also need to be guaranteed my dog will win their cast also.

Xdawg,

That is a different idea. If there was not so much at stake as far as Challenge Series Points I could possibly see that working.
The Nationals and the larger events are places that people gain sometimes significant Black Gold points. I know that if these people are in the race they are going to try and find honey holes so they will have enough points to advance so they can keep gaining points.

But what if the best dog was the dog that scored 1600 and the next closest dog in his cast was 1000. Then when it goes to the Lottery he doesnt get pulled.

Maybe take the top 12 point hounds and the next four places go to a lottery draw!!!

My vote is make it three days. Granted Scott I know it is a pain but if you would get more envolvement from the local clubs you could pull it off. Heck I am pouring my wifes money into Holmes and Coshocton County usually on Thursday morning anyways.

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Dang Dave beat me too it. I need to type faster.

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Mountain View Beagles
"Where Hunt and Show are One"

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Not trying to stir anyone up but it is a full weekend the way it is. I know there has been talk if it continues to grow that it may need to go to a satalite hunt. We already have the Eliminator and the World. The Nationals does need its own identity which it has. Heck some of the Black Gold hunts Ive been to we would have loved even 5 pluss points. Its field trialing be thankfull that you aleast got the oppertunity to run a rabbit.

You want to see first hand how hard it is be at the Don McVay Sr Memorial hunt. It is an Elimination Style and we along with other clubs will work our butts off to pull this hunt off!!! And its only a 4th of the hounds at Nationals!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by wvbill
But what if the best dog was the dog that scored 1600 and the next closest dog in his cast was 1000. Then when it goes to the Lottery he doesnt get pulled.

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I don't agree with people not getting sent to the best spots. The reason I say this is just this year I had a non hunting guide and a few minutes after we got to our hunting spot....the guide had to go to the bathroom. Well the guide left and came back a little over an hour later. The whole cast was left out there without any idea where the rabbits were and if we did find one where would they run to try to score lines......

The whole cast felt that since the guide didn't have a dog in the hunt, who cares how many rabbits we see. May not have been this way, but several members of the cast felt that way...

Leave it like it is and let the dogs sort it out in the feild.

"HAIL TO THE VICTORS"
Mike

re

I had a guide one time go in the house never to return... He did point where to go... And we had to put up with a beagle running lose (not ours) the whole time.

Stuff happens, thats why i'm saying how can you really compare 2 cast winners strickly on points plussed? Not all judges judge the same way and not all rabbits run the same way...

-Jack

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I think UKC & Scott & the rest of guy that put the Nationals on does a great job,I have had alot of fun going,we have had some good luck & we have had some bad,but just being there for me is what counts.I think it would be hard to do it any other way.

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Gary (BUB) Milam Loko Kennels
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This is my take on it , I've won 4 or 5 cast in a row (I stopped counting) I've been just outside the bubble.
I have guided every year at the Nats for Scott, because I know he needs the help. But I know going out in the morning my spots can't compete with alot of these honey holes, and time has shown me this. The same guides every year are coming back in the top ten and everybody knows who they are.
So I don't think dog power has anything to do with it.
It's not a level playing field, so I won't be coming back to the Nats. I think Scott and others do an exellent job putting this event on and they deserve alot of credit, I don't think anyone else could do better. The format just needs to go Elimination.
I know what Scotts thinking, he's thinking I have my hands full now, and that would be alot more work.
It would be more work I'm sure, but I think It would be worth it.
I may or may not be missed next year, but how many more are going to feel the way I feel and stop coming?
There's no doubt in my mind, because I choose to help guide It has cost me National win.

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Gorman's Creek Kennels
The Home of GRHBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Red Chief
2009 Ohio State Hunt Grand Cast winner at age 9. 2007 NHBA Days Grand Champion Winner and Top Dog of the Hunt Winner, the only dog out of 80 to circle a rabbit that day. 2003 Ohio State UKC and NKC Best in show Winner, Nationals and Eliminator Best Senior Male. National Cast Winner 8 years in a row.
HBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Blue Ribbon Best in Show Winner of the 1st McVay
2002 Memorial Hunt, Champion of Champions Eliminator Hunt. National Cast winner 3 years in a row.
GRHBCH Gorman's Big Brassy
HBCH CH Gorman's Creek Jewel
CH Gorman's Princess Leia

"The more you think you know, the less you really know".

Interesting discusions.

The spot you hunt does have a direct impact on the amount of points scored on a cast. Some spots have a bunch of lanes cut to score lines on and some don't. More rabbits or less rabbits. Spots are not the same and sometimes not even close.

Does a judge guiding a cast in his or her best spot have an advantage scoring points? Sure if the same spots produces big points time and again.

So if 60 cast winners come in and you draw to see who goes on it will be more fair. Is this the best way? Maybe not but is it better for competition?

As for challenge points and those people finding honey holes to protect their points or gain them is the best dog realy winning?

The guide who still cant score enough to make the finals should be a good measure.

As far as a good hunt I never questioned that and Scott and company do a fabulous job!!!!

No matter how it works out its worth it just to hear them run.
If you can't have fun running dogs you shouldn't go

Jack it was Powell's Sundown Spencer that won the Nats 2 years ago. Sundown Tess was the bubble dog in the grands that got knocked out of the final 4 round by White River Bow of Touchstone who went on to win grands. Would I have like to have had the oppertunity to compete to get in the finals? ABSOLUTELY!!! But thats the rules of the nationals. I knew it when I entered the event.
I understand what everyone is saying but to run it elimination with 3 classes is impossible in 2 days. Is a lottery fair? maybe, but I'm sure we would have those on here complaining about that also. From what I am reading it is already a lottery to get drawed to one of these casts. As far scores I think Im correct in saying the scores from the past couple of years have been much lower then in previous years. The Nationals must be doing something right or it wouldnt continue to grow.

SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT.
If the Nationals was to change to a lottery to advance where would it stop? Why not have the same rules for your local hunt? It would completly change how the UKC format (excluding elimination style) is ran and its rules. If there is this much concern about advancing the correct dog, than in 2008 there should be alot more elimination style hunts at your local clubs. Why ask Scott and his help to change if your not willing to do it at your local events.

Good point Dave. Everyone wants the Nationals to be elimination style yet only about 5% of the events each year are elimination events. People say things like "our club members don't like them", "they take too long", "we don't have enough guides". Yet they want the biggest event of the year to attempt to do it. It would be about a 3 and possibly 4 day event.

Saturday morning 260 registered dogs would be back by 3:00. This would advance 65 cast winners. These 17 casts would g out and we would be lucky to get them back by dark. Then we would do the Bench Show after dark. Sunday Morning we could send out the 5 casts of registered dogs, 40 casts of HBCH and 17 casts of Grands. This is only 5 extra casts than normal. Sunday afternoon we could send out the semi- final casts of registered dogs, the 10 casts of HBCH and the 5 casts of grands.

When they got if it wasn't dark (or Monday morning) we could send out the 2 dog registered final, the semi finals for HBCH and the semifinals for the Grands. When they got back Monday afternoon we could run the HBCH 3 dog final and the GRHBCH 2 dog final.

Thats only 170 casts to guide over the weekend. Should be easy.

I say when 51% of the club events (more than half) each year are elim events, we will look at the Nationals changing.

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Brewster/Navarre only draws about 20 to 30 dogs so if you win your cast aleast you Place, and I have seen 16 only show up so if you won your cast your in the final 4.
However I see you point and it's a good one.
I like Todd's challenge and would support it all going to Elimination stlye hunt which is the best way go.
I hope every club will step up!

__________________
Gorman's Creek Kennels
The Home of GRHBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Red Chief
2009 Ohio State Hunt Grand Cast winner at age 9. 2007 NHBA Days Grand Champion Winner and Top Dog of the Hunt Winner, the only dog out of 80 to circle a rabbit that day. 2003 Ohio State UKC and NKC Best in show Winner, Nationals and Eliminator Best Senior Male. National Cast Winner 8 years in a row.
HBCH GRCH Cherry Hill Blue Ribbon Best in Show Winner of the 1st McVay
2002 Memorial Hunt, Champion of Champions Eliminator Hunt. National Cast winner 3 years in a row.
GRHBCH Gorman's Big Brassy
HBCH CH Gorman's Creek Jewel
CH Gorman's Princess Leia

"The more you think you know, the less you really know".

quote:

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Originally posted by Sundown Beagles
From what I am reading it is already a lottery to get drawed to one of these casts.

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