UKC Forums - All Grand versus Non

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-- All Grand versus Non (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=113836)

Posted by Chris Herring on 10-01-2006 04:50 PM:

I'd like to add a thought, not really about the percentages, but about a statement that I keep seeing.

The statement is, that papers don't tree coons.

That statement is TRUE, I agree with it to a point....However consider this. Papers can show...
1. Through the titles earned by a pups ancestors, that a pup is coming from a line of coondogs. We can't go back and hunt with those long dead dogs or even the ones alive that are too far away or retired.
2. We hunt these hunts because we believe they are an indicator to others as to how well our dog performs, yet if we dismiss the titles on those papers we also dismiss the entire competition hunting scene....so why hunt the hunts at all?
3. Coondogs + Coondogs = coondogs, Thats the truth! But i'd like to expand it to....Coondog from Coondogs + Coondog from Coondogs = Potentially great coondogs.......Again, how do we know if those coondogs in the past generations were coondogs? 2 things word of mouth or titles are the indicators that we use...I trust the titles because I trust the system that UKC has implemented...Yes, there are exceptions, but for the most part the system works well...If it did'nt this message board and UKC events would be dead.

What I am trying to say is that papers don't make coondogs, but papers can give a good indication when looking to breed or buy a puppy.

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Posted by Tim Green on 10-01-2006 05:07 PM:

I believe it really comes down to who is promoting the dog. Whether the dog is all grand or not really doesn't matter. The guys that promote these hounds have quite a bit of money and above all can sell pups to anyone. Also, if you breed a dog enough, whether it is all grand or not, eventually some of them have bound to turn out. Look at Rat.....and now it is going to be Trackman....and so on. If enough people breed and buy those pups, there is no question some will show up in the big hunts and win. If someone took an ordinary old coon dog and did the same thing.....breed so many females that it floods the market, then some of those will show up also.

All grand or not is the question.....well I don't think it matters if you hunt the dog. Even the best out there, if it was never hunted it will be a dud regardless.....

Just my thoughts

Tim

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Posted by rance56 on 10-01-2006 05:12 PM:

sam,

I dont have any all grands. i do have a blue female and a walker male that I think alot of. Are you willing to guarantee your all grands will beat my dogs head to head and be able to tree more coons than them hunting alone not on feeders?

Rance

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Posted by rance56 on 10-01-2006 05:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cotton1
GREAT STATEMENT

And you are correct with your investment. Invest your money with a chance to get a return.

if i want to invest money, ill call a stock broker!
i want a dam coon dog not an investment.

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-01-2006 07:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
sam,

I dont have any all grands. i do have a blue female and a walker male that I think alot of. Are you willing to guarantee your all grands will beat my dogs head to head and be able to tree more coons than them hunting alone not on feeders?

Rance

You bluetickers had to have you own all blue world hunt to get a world champion, and you were not able to do that 2 years ago.

I did not know feeder coons smelled different that wild coons?

Is that not the same as the paper issue?

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Posted by josh on 10-01-2006 07:26 PM:

If Im reading this correctly, Mr cotton is saying an all grand pup will have a better chance of turning out than a "pr" pup.

I doubt this very much.

The all grand has more to do with promoting and marketing than anything else.

If your goal is to sell pups and stud fees, then you would be much further ahead to start with an all grand pup.

Im just a dumb coonhunter whos hound dont get to town very often.

Im fine with that.

I cant help but wonder why Mr cotton is so bothered by all of us idiots that dont hunt all grand pups?

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Posted by blake jones on 10-01-2006 07:30 PM:

if you breed coondogs to coondogs, odds are there are going to be some grand nites in their pedigree. You can hunt a dog to death or not hunt it at all, it will have no bearing on what type pups it throws, it is either in its blood or not to reproduce. if it is allgrand then great, if it is a real coondog that has not been in the hunts then great, they both may be able to produce good quality pups.

Posted by rance56 on 10-01-2006 07:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cotton1
You bluetickers had to have you own all blue world hunt to get a world champion, and you were not able to do that 2 years ago.

I did not know feeder coons smelled different that wild coons?

Is that not the same as the paper issue?

sam,

just answer the question. if you truely want me to make all grand a priority you need to show me what you got is better than what i got in the woods.

as far as feeder buckets go, culls can tree coons on feeder buckets, and thats a fact. anyways, im not worried about turning loose on feeder buckets, ill beat your eyes out on them. i was just curious to see if yours could tree a wild coon on their own. you might not know the answer either, if i remember correctly, you have never hunted with the one rat b1tch you own, you know the one that came from over here near me in georgia.

why dont you agree to let me come film her hunting by herself not on buckets?

im not against all grand at all, but its way down the list of priorites for me when it comes to owning/breeding dogs

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Posted by walkercash on 10-01-2006 08:44 PM:

Sam, if you come on here and make a statement like this then you better be ready to explain. Level headed would be great instead of trying to sound like a smart ass and tell people they arent smart, just because they dont agree with you. If I was going to buy a pup right now it sure would be from you after these colors come out.

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Whitey Dogs ROCK!!!
I use and recommend Kelley's K-Lights.

Posted by jimmie legrand on 10-01-2006 09:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
if i want to invest money, ill call a stock broker!
i want a dam coon dog not an investment.

i agree rance
what really matters to me is when i look up and see coon eyes starein back at me these degrees mean some folks go out and hunt against each other to see what hound is better on that night i have no problem with titles that tells me some have the desire to compete with one another to see whos hounjd is better great good fer ya and all but them papers wont ever run out and tree anythin let alone a coon folks with all grand hounds be proud of that but dont run down or think because a hound doesnt have titles on his papers it aint a houind ive seen some mighty fine potlickers without one titled hound in thier 3 gen ped that was flat good getrdone coondawgs

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-02-2006 04:34 PM:

[quote="Thad Simpson"]Buckwheat isnt all grand and not even close. His sire is a UKC Nite Ch and a PKC Ch his mom has not ever never been in a hunt UKC PKC or any hunt. She is just a old country coondog owned by a good ole country boy, a good ole country boy that is making some money off of this cross! It's all in what you want and what you like All Grand or No Grand, it's who's hands your pup gets into. A good trainer will own a good dog, a bad trainer will own a well you know the terms!![/quote]

He is just one of the 80%.
Where are the rest.

Look at the numbers guys.

I see John Tredwell is listed in 3 breeder of the year slots, and he is getting it done with all grand.

Think about it. One guy a few hounds, and he is beating everyone else.

Where is the other 80%. You would think 80 beats 20, but it is not getting it done.

Why is all grand leading the pack in PKC when the majority of PKC is known not to care about UKC titled hounds.

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-02-2006 04:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by walkercash
Sam, if you come on here and make a statement like this then you better be ready to explain. Level headed would be great instead of trying to sound like a smart ass and tell people they arent smart, just because they dont agree with you. If I was going to buy a pup right now it sure would be from you after these colors come out.

I see where you are working hard on finishing your to hounds out. They are still PR.

So do not be upset at me for reaching my goals.

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-02-2006 04:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
sam,

just answer the question. if you truely want me to make all grand a priority you need to show me what you got is better than what i got in the woods.

as far as feeder buckets go, culls can tree coons on feeder buckets, and thats a fact. anyways, im not worried about turning loose on feeder buckets, ill beat your eyes out on them. i was just curious to see if yours could tree a wild coon on their own. you might not know the answer either, if i remember correctly, you have never hunted with the one rat b1tch you own, you know the one that came from over here near me in georgia.

why dont you agree to let me come film her hunting by herself not on buckets?

im not against all grand at all, but its way down the list of priorites for me when it comes to owning/breeding dogs

How many hunts did it take for you to finish sassy?

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Posted by newhunter on 10-02-2006 05:08 PM:

A couple thoughts. I have to ask myself how many all grand pups did those top breeders have to sell to get one that can win $1000.00 and a few others that win a few hundred and get them listed as a top breeder, and how many of them are from one good liter? Basically, what is the percentage of good all grand pups to culls. The only way I would even think of spending $1000.00 on an 8 week old pup is if the breeder was willing to give a 100% money back guarentee that said pup would make a Nite Ch by 2 years of age. That is believing in your product. All this other garbage is just a way of getting pub to market pups. This is the motive for most posts like this, nothing else. It has been said that there is no such thing as bad publicity.

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Posted by Christy on 10-02-2006 05:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cotton1
I see where you are working hard on finishing your to hounds out. They are still PR.

So do not be upset at me for reaching my goals.

SO, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, IS THAT YOU SET A GOAL TO FINISH YOUR DOGS OUT TO GRNTCH'S AND WIN ALL THESE BIG HUNTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

WITH THAT BEING SAID.....

LET ME ASK YOU THIS.....

DID YOU FINISH YOUR DOGS TO GRNTCH'S?

OR

DID YOUR DOGS FINISH TO GRNTCH'S?

THINK CAREFULLY, OR YOU MIGHT JUST PROVE YOU CAN MAKE SUGAR OUT OF CRAP WITH YOUR ANSWER.

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Posted by rance56 on 10-02-2006 05:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cotton1
How many hunts did it take for you to finish sassy?

not sure, but she went to nothing to a gr nt in a years time w/o being hauled to a hunt every weekend and she won more than she lost. she just turned 3 years of age not too long ago

she had 4 places/wins as a registered dog, and ofcourse 5 nt ch wins,

all 9 places/wins were at 9 completely different clubs with 9 completely different guides, none of which was me, with one being at the winter classic

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Posted by walkercash on 10-02-2006 05:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cotton1
I see where you are working hard on finishing your to hounds out. They are still PR.

So do not be upset at me for reaching my goals.

Yea they are PR and they are not even close to ready for a hunt. Good call. Two pups with no degrees.

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Whitey Dogs ROCK!!!
I use and recommend Kelley's K-Lights.

Posted by rgregory on 10-02-2006 06:11 PM:

By reading your post I get the feeling you are upset because people are not buying your all Grand pups. That is what makes this sport nice everyone can buy and breed what they want. If all grand where such a sure thing breeders could just give them away and get rich from all the breeder money they would win! Best of luck to you just remember everybody doesn't have to think like you isn't that wonderful.

Posted by cotton1 on 10-02-2006 06:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
SO, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, IS THAT YOU SET A GOAL TO FINISH YOUR DOGS OUT TO GRNTCH'S AND WIN ALL THESE BIG HUNTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

WITH THAT BEING SAID.....

LET ME ASK YOU THIS.....

DID YOU FINISH YOUR DOGS TO GRNTCH'S?

OR

DID YOUR DOGS FINISH TO GRNTCH'S?

THINK CAREFULLY, OR YOU MIGHT JUST PROVE YOU CAN MAKE SUGAR OUT OF CRAP WITH YOUR ANSWER.

You just keep plugging along with ole sid. You and him will make it soon it.

I do not have to finish mine to grand they do it themself.

Queen 7 NT CH cast 6 cast wins. 5 high scoring dog.
Timber 11 total hunts from register to Grand nite
Josie 8 hunts

You will get there.

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-02-2006 06:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rgregory
By reading your post I get the feeling you are upset because people are not buying your all Grand pups. That is what makes this sport nice everyone can buy and breed what they want. If all grand where such a sure thing breeders could just give them away and get rich from all the breeder money they would win! Best of luck to you just remember everybody doesn't have to think like you isn't that wonderful.

You guys have jumped on me. Just showing that the percentage of success goes up with proven parentage.

Look at the sire and breeder race in PKC.

There are less All Grands being produced than other hounds, yet, a large portion of those winning those races are strongly connected to All Grand Status.

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Posted by rance56 on 10-02-2006 07:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cotton1
You guys have jumped on me. Just showing that the percentage of success goes up with proven parentage.

sam, i agree with you on this, but i dont agree you have to have all grand to have proven parentage and i dont agree all grand equals proven parentage in all cases. there is a lot inbetween all grand and junk, and somewhere in between is alot of dogs that are better and throw better than alot of the all grand stuff out there.

how many of those wins did you or the current owner guide?

ive just seen too many dogs earn titles and win a bunch of money to put a whole lot merit into them. not having titles and proven parentage will get you off my list, but just becasue you do have them dont make you a coondog or reproducer in my eyes cause ive seen alot of very sorry money winners and title holders.

local ukc hunts and mid level pkc pup derbys equal alot of easy wins imo

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Posted by Tim Chavis on 10-02-2006 07:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
SO, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, IS THAT YOU SET A GOAL TO FINISH YOUR DOGS OUT TO GRNTCH'S AND WIN ALL THESE BIG HUNTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

WITH THAT BEING SAID.....

LET ME ASK YOU THIS.....

DID YOU FINISH YOUR DOGS TO GRNTCH'S?

OR

DID YOUR DOGS FINISH TO GRNTCH'S?

THINK CAREFULLY, OR YOU MIGHT JUST PROVE YOU CAN MAKE SUGAR OUT OF CRAP WITH YOUR ANSWER.

He had the bigest crooks he could find hunting them.

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Posted by PatrickRobinson on 10-02-2006 10:01 PM:

Well the supply and demand is starting to equal out on the all grands any way. When they first started promoting all grand studs and pups the price was rather high. But now there is so many dogs that are all grand that the price of pups has came down, and will continue to drop. As far as claming that the all grands are better that is funny, they are just dogs just like country coondogs.

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Posted by Christy on 10-03-2006 01:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BlowHardHunter
is queen the female that wolfenberger had?

IF SO, I KNOW WHERE ONE OF HER "SO CALLED" ELUSIVE WINS CAME FROM.

FINES CREEK NC.

AND I CAN PROMISE YOU, YOU DONT EVEN WANT TO KNOW THE DETAILS ON THAT NIGHT!!!!

BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH WE DIDNT WIN, AND GOT CHEATED TO NO END, I STILL HAVE TO LAUGH AT HOW FAR SOME PEOPLE WILL GO TO WIN, JUST TO SAY "I FINISHED SO AND SO OUT TO GRNTCH LAST NIGHT."

BOY WAS THAT EVER A NIGHT TO REMEMBER.

Posted by Christy on 10-03-2006 01:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by cotton1
You just keep plugging along with ole sid. You and him will make it soon it.

I do not have to finish mine to grand they do it themself.

Queen 7 NT CH cast 6 cast wins. 5 high scoring dog.
Timber 11 total hunts from register to Grand nite
Josie 8 hunts

You will get there.

JUST SO YOU KNOW..........

FACT:

SID WON 1ST PLACE IN HIS VERY FIRST HUNT HE WAS PUT INTO AND WAS HIGH SCORING DOG OVERALL, AFTER HE HAD BEEN SETTING ON A CHAIN FOR 9 MONTHS. (NATURAL ABILITY, I BELIEVE IS WHAT THEY CALL THAT.)

SID FINISHED TO NTCH IN 21 DAYS

SID FINISHED TO NTCH WITH TWO 1ST PLACES AND A 3RD

SID'S 3RD AND LAST FIRST WERE BACK TO BACK WINS IN THE SAME WEEKEND IN TWO DIFFERENT STATES!! HE WAS HIGH SCORING DOG ON THE LAST 1ST AS WELL.

SID HAS BEEN ENTERED INTO A TOTAL OF 9 NTCH CASTS. WITH 5 CASTS WINS AND 2 WINS THAT WENT TOWARDS GRNTCH, THE OTHER 3 WINS WE WERE BEAT BY A HIGHER SCORING CAST, ON THE TWO HE WON, BOTH OF WHICH HE WAS HIGH SCORING DOG OVERALL.

OUT OF THE 5 WINS SID HAS, HE WAS HIGH SCORING DOG OVERALL IN 4 OF THEM.

SO MAYBE WE WILL JUST KEEP PLUGGING ALONG WITH HIM, MAYBE WE WONT EVEN ENTER HIM IN ANYMORE HUNTS, WHO KNOWS. BUT AS LONG AS HE STAYS A CONSISTENT CAST WINNER, I COULD CARE LESS HOW LONG IT TAKES IF WE EVEN PURSUE IT.

IF WE WERE SO WORRIED ABOUT FINISHING HIM TO GRNTCH, WE'D BE HUNTING HIM AT ALL THESE HUNTS INSTEAD OF HIS PUPS.

BUT RIGHT NOW HE'S DOING WHAT HE DOES BEST, TRAINING PUPS AND AS FAR AS WE'RE CONCERNED AS LONG AS HE'S REPRODUCING LIKE HE IS, WE COULD CARE LESS IF HE EVER FINISHES TO GRNTCH.

WE COULD SET HERE AND COMPARE STATISTICS ALL DAY, BUT IT WONT PROVE ANYTHING.

MY POINT IS THIS, YOU SAY A GRNTCH IS WORTH MORE THAN A PR DOG.

I GUESS THAT DEPENDS ON THE DOG.

BUT PERSONALLY, I'LL TAKE A SELF MADE 'PR' COON DOG OVER A MAN MADE GRNTCH ANY DAY.

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