UKC Forums - For Todd Kellam//Crossbred

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-- For Todd Kellam//Crossbred (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=113267)

Posted by terry willford on 09-27-2006 05:29 PM:

If you are a walker breeder and you think crossbreeding doesnt work you had better do a little research, especially if you hunt anything with clover in it. Talk to those that know about what lone pine lady, finley river bell and other foundation dogs are out of.
If you are an english breeder look back on beshears blue boy(junior) and do a little research.
Crossbreeding does produce good cattle, hogs, sheep and COONHOUNDS. You do have to be very careful how you do it and it is not for everyone. You will probably have to do some linebreeding in order to keep the traits you want. But a outcross every once in a while is a good thing.
I dont think UKC should single register crossbreeds unless they are 7/8 pure. Until they are 7/8 they should just be registered as crossbred with the ancestors identified as to which breed they are. It would be a win/win situation in the fact that more dogs would be able to compete so more money to a club, UKC could make more money, and the kid down the road who got the free half walker half bluetick pup wouldnt feel left out. As far as crossing with curs they already register treeing curs so that is really a mute point. but as far as crossing the hound breeds, its a free country so why not.

Posted by rocky tanner on 09-27-2006 05:36 PM:

I really have no opinion one way or the other, but I did have a post deleted where I was trying to give a puppy away that was a cross between a beagle and feist. Could have been the next world Champion? I guess. "Calm down just kiddin" I did have a post deleted though.

Posted by Shiremans blues on 09-27-2006 06:10 PM:

Crossbreds

Jake, I can relate to you wanting a crossbred to be registered, but in my opinion if this was allowed it should only be coonhounds, I don't think they would allow beagles, whippet's, treeing curs or whatever else you have on the farm running around to be bred as coondogs. Man you really opened up a can of worms on this thread. Talk to you later buddy. Kevin

Posted by Joe O'Bryan on 09-27-2006 10:19 PM:

GOT CROSS BRED

GOT CROSS BRED DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK .
ONE DOG IN MIND TN.HARD ROCK UKC AND AKC CALL HIM BLACK AND TAN,BUT IS HE? NO,HE IS HALF WALKER HALF BLACK AND TAN I CALL HIM CROSS BRED.STOP LIEING OR MISLEADING YOURSELF IF YOU THINK FOR ONCE HE'S A BLACK AND TAN MORE REASON TO CALL HIM WHAT HE RELLY IS(CROSS BRED).

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Posted by Bear on 09-27-2006 11:51 PM:

Re: GOT CROSS BRED

"quote sky, genitic mud"

Sky why dont you "Follow Jennifer" some where else.As other stated you wouldnt no a coon/bear hound if it bit you.Let alone have any idea how to breed "working" hounds.as in hunting! Not looking pretty or obedience trials but an honest to god hunting dog.

Posted by PR PENCIL on 09-27-2006 11:53 PM:

those rear dew claws, bald face, blue eyes, and long hair on the Clover bred walker came from border collie.

Posted by keithbluemoon on 09-28-2006 12:02 AM:

Why over money

Take our hounds back 50 years thats crazy over money DONT DO IT UKC!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by PR PENCIL on 09-28-2006 12:08 AM:

Re: Why over money

quote:
Originally posted by keithbluemoon
Take our hounds back 50 years thats crazy over money DONT DO IT UKC!!!!!!!!!

what do you mean?

Posted by J. Wigley on 09-28-2006 12:11 AM:

Re: Why over money

quote:
Originally posted by keithbluemoon
Take our hounds back 50 years thats crazy over money DONT DO IT UKC!!!!!!!!!

Say Boy!! how long have you had these symptons? You need to see Doctor Phil

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Burr Oak Blueticks

Posted by Hired Gun on 09-28-2006 12:18 AM:

Re: Re: Why over money

quote:
Originally posted by J. Wigley
Say Boy!! how long have you had these symptons? You need to see Doctor Phil

Ain't his fault. He and Jeffy are "life partners". Leads to anxiety issues.

Dr Phil might be a good choice though. Maybe Springer.

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Posted by J. Wigley on 09-28-2006 12:25 AM:

Can you just imagine a club that would use Skyblu as MOH. If we ever get to hunt cross breeds in UKC we will sure have to watch that.

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Burr Oak Blueticks

Posted by Bruce Conkey on 09-28-2006 12:58 AM:

I will only make one post on cross breeding but think about what I write and make up your own mind.
List the breeds in order of color restrictions that prevent outcrossing and slipping a little walker, english or bluetick blood.
Plott
Redbone
Black and Tan
Bluetick
English
Walker
Now list the breeds in order of which ones win the most hunts.
Walker
Englsih
Bluetick
Black and Tan
Redbone
Plott
Does anyone else see a pattern.

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Posted by Chiggers on 09-28-2006 01:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Conkey
I will only make one post on cross breeding but think about what I write and make up your own mind.
List the breeds in order of color restrictions that prevent outcrossing and slipping a little walker, english or bluetick blood.
Plott
Redbone
Black and Tan
Bluetick
English
Walker
Now list the breeds in order of which ones win the most hunts.
Walker
Englsih
Bluetick
Black and Tan
Redbone
Plott
Does anyone else see a pattern.

Man thats a Good Post!

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Posted by hoplong on 09-28-2006 01:23 AM:

Plotts

As far as knowing Plotts,I have followed them since 1974. as far
as breeding them myself.I know what is behind the dogs that I
breed,which is what I was refering to,as well as some of my friends.Ha Ha ? you try some hot sauce & your river water,maybe
you can get your words down.

Posted by wkfii on 09-28-2006 01:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by terry willford
If you are a walker breeder and you think crossbreeding doesnt work you had better do a little research, especially if you hunt anything with clover in it. Talk to those that know about what lone pine lady, finley river bell and other foundation dogs are out of.
If you are an english breeder look back on beshears blue boy(junior) and do a little research.
Crossbreeding does produce good cattle, hogs, sheep and COONHOUNDS. You do have to be very careful how you do it and it is not for everyone. You will probably have to do some linebreeding in order to keep the traits you want. But a outcross every once in a while is a good thing.
I dont think UKC should single register crossbreeds unless they are 7/8 pure. Until they are 7/8 they should just be registered as crossbred with the ancestors identified as to which breed they are. It would be a win/win situation in the fact that more dogs would be able to compete so more money to a club, UKC could make more money, and the kid down the road who got the free half walker half bluetick pup wouldnt feel left out. As far as crossing with curs they already register treeing curs so that is really a mute point. but as far as crossing the hound breeds, its a free country so why not.

This has to be one of the most contentious issues ever on the board and by my count at least the third thread started on this issue. I agree for the most part with Terry's assessment especially in regard to his statement that an outcross every once in a while is a good thing. However, I have some points that I would like to make.

First, just that fact that you mix a Walker and a Black and Tan is not going to produce anything like hybrid vigor. There is very little genetic diversity in all of the hunting breeds combined. I include labs, hounds, bird dogs, coonhounds, etc. The DNA study published in Nature has demonstrated that with some scientific certainty. Within the coonhound or treehound breeding there is even less. I would submit that the "breeds" are really "brands" based upon the color of the coat. Even the Plott is included in that statement because it is my understanding from conversations with certain people in the know that Blueticks and Walkers have been crossed into the breed for years based upon the premise that if you breed good hounds to good hounds you are going to get good hounds and it does not matter what the color of the coat is. In any event, Plotts are St. Hubert derivatives just like Bloodhounds, Black and Tans, Redbones. Plus, the St Hubert derivatives have been bred into the Foxhound, and Gascogn derivatives for years.

Second, I recognize that many other types of dog have been bred into the scenthounds in this country and historically. That has been going on for thousands of years to the time that the Celts moved into western Europe with their massive 250 lb. mastiff type scenthounds. So when fifty years ago farmer Jones bred his little treeing border collie to his bloodhound, he was merely carrying on a tradition that was well established and really nothing new. Breed for performance and specifically breed to perform a task in mind. Joe Brooks stated that "Hard Time Speck, Flinley River Chief, Johnson's Banjo, was out of an english and a dog of Whippet blood." I really had not heard that, and would be interested in learning more from Joe. It really does not surprise me in the least because that cross, the greyhound type to the scenthound type, is one that has been made for centuries and the reason that our treeing hounds do not look like St. Bernards- at least in regard to size and coat. see Whippet snippet below.

"The Whippet was developed at the end of the 19th century through crossing among the Greyhound, the Italian Greyhound, and the Terrier. Its name derives from the expression "whip it" meaning to move quickly. The Whippet is an outstanding track racer over short distances reaching speeds of up to 37 miles per hour (60km. per hour) - in seconds! Coursing these dogs was an entertaining form of gambling for the lower classes in England. Some of the Whippet's talents include: hunting, sighting, watchdogging, racing, agility, and lure coursing."

I don't know about Clover bred Walkers being from collies in this country. I may be mistaken, but I had thought that that look was coming from old Finley River Pete to Hardwood Bozo to Clover. Forrester's Sue, a Elbert Vaughn bred Bluetick, was single registered as a Walker and was a cornerstone of the Finley River line. Vaughn attributed the off color eyes in his Blueticks to a trait that come from crosses with Goodman Running Walkers. Vaughn ought to know because he was, if I am not mistaken doing the breeding and/ or had first hand knowledge of that cross. Goodmans are rough coated and are more or less a cross between the old Kentucky Walkers and Irish Wolfhound type rough coated sight hounds. Who by the way were loaded with greyhound type blood. Could the Irish hounds and the collie types have common blood? Probably.

Third, very few of us have the ability to breed hounds like Elbert Vaughn. I know that I don't. Having said this, I think that the branding that we currently have has served the coonhound community well and would like to keep the registry the way it is. Single registration provides for the opportunity to introduce hounds of mixed ancestry or brands. I think that working within the individual associations that those rules can be tweaked. Performance ought to be the primary criterion. To create a registry and have a en masse registration of dogs that are crossed is just a bad idea because it undermines the whole reason why these hounds needed to be registered in the first place. We don't need to go back to the dark ages.

Lastly, I think fundamentally, this ongoing debate has more to do with the basic fundamental that has driven the development of all the hunting breeds. In other words, what are the hounds being bred to do or perform. Generally, we have the show people, the generalists, and the competition hunters. Broadly speaking, the generalists like to bench show, pleasure hunt, and competition hunt. The show people just like to bench. The pure competition people just like to competition hunt. Skyblu, may hunt a little, but she has taken the bench/ show track. Everything has to be purebred and we should jump off the cliff after the AKC registered Irish Setters and Black and Tans. etc. The breed standard is the holy grail and all hounds should be bred to fall within that standard. Lynn "Big Breezy" Wilson even proclaims that hounds bred to comply with the standards will make the best hunters. HUH?

Some of the pure competition people proclaim that the Walker was bred to win competition hunts, blah, blah, blah. Cirlce points don't put meat in the tree and the Treeing Walker was bred to put meat in the tree.

We need to breed for performance within the current rules with a single registration program designed to allow hounds that can perform in the field to be so registered. If I can find a running Walker that trees and runs a track faster than most treehounds of today, and is accurate, should not that hound be eligible for single registration? Would it not improve upon the brand that has become unbalanced a tad with too much tree? That's not genetic mud, that is going back to a formula that worked with Crowding Billy- who by the way could trace his ancestry directly to Big Stride and the original Tenn. Lead.

We need to keep the balance that we have and tweak the single registration rules a little here and there with performance being the holy grail.

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Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.

Posted by wkfii on 09-28-2006 05:02 AM:

Re: Cross Bred

quote:
Originally posted by JOE H BROOKS
Johnson's Banjo, was the dog i was referring to as being out of an English dog and a dog that had Wippet, in it. Finley River Chief's daddy was Shetler's Sonny Boy, one of Sonny Boy's grand parents was a bluetick. Hard Time Speck was a registered Walker, they singled registered him as English, he had Johnson's Banjo back, in his line. People want to get mad about their dogs, a young fellow told me one time, his english dog, didn't have any walker in him, i told him he didn't go back, far enough and look for it.

It's the American way to look to the future and put the past behind us. Of course you can learn from the past. I did not know about Banjo and his greyhound type blood being that close. I notice that a fair amount of western bred Treeing Walkers and Running Walkers have a little bit more of that greyhound/ sighthound look to them. I don't know if that is because the genes are being brought out through selective breeding or if it is because there are more recent crosses- probably both.

Oh the subject of that Clover look, check out these photos.

First, is Owens' Hardwood Bozo. The sire of Clover.

Second, is my Red Eagle Thor, aka Whitey with my Smokey River Remington Zee. Whitey's dam was by Hardwood Patch who was by Bozo.

Third, is Motley's Missouri Major, by Indiana Boone Boy.

Fourth, is Indiana Boone Boy, a Vaughn bred Bluetick, who came out of the oven a Walker, and was single registered a Walker. The rest of his littermates were Blueticks.

Fifth, is Bearhunter with his Speck. Speck is a registered English. Is he not a nice looking hound? I cannot imagine Sam feeding him if he did not perform.

Check out the markings on the heads of the Walkers. That look is coming from the Bluetick blood and the antecedent Gascogn blood. Those markings or pattern of markings is coming from old, old blood. Genetic mud?

Check out this canned history.

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Grand...s&id=237550

The original scenthounds were 250 lb mastiff type dogs. Check out this St. Bernard pup. He does not look like any Collie I have ever seen.

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Member of the NAADP

Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.

Posted by JOE H BROOKS on 09-28-2006 06:27 AM:

Cross Bred Hounds

I had gotten the information, about Johnson's Banjo, from an old article, written years ago in the American Cooner, it might have been one about James Merchant or Tim Ball, i really can't remember. It said that Banjo, was the real deal, but he had a thin hair coat and got sick from hunting, him on a river, in the cold of winter, he later died from it. It said, he was a hell of a tree dog, that, he passed it, on in his genes, to Banjo II, House's Chief, Singing Banjo, Grass Run Banjo and all the others, that came from him. I had an old black headed, mostly white walker male out of Singing Banjo and Derickson's Kentucky Jude, he was for ever more a tree dog. In some old pedigree's, i think going back to Tarleton's Bawling Bowser, he was U.S. Aling's Singing Sue's daddy, who was, Singing Banjo's Mother. I think you will find Mountain Music Blue and Mountain Music Blaze, some of the foundation stock, of the bluetick breed, it's in there.

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Posted by Mike Jones on 09-28-2006 10:14 AM:

wkfii

Ian't the 2nd pic of some of Clayton's Smokey Mtn. dogs....just wondering?

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Posted by wkfii on 09-28-2006 11:37 AM:

Re: wkfii

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Jones
Ian't the 2nd pic of some of Clayton's Smokey Mtn. dogs....just wondering?

Remington or Whitey?

Mike, Remington is linebred on the Smokey River Bluetick lines. I don't know if he has a link to the hounds you mentioned because I don't know the Bluetick lines all that well.

Whitey is Red Eagle Dick, River Bend Flag, Bozo, and Tenn Lead II, etc. bred. His sire is Red Eagle Casey II. His dam was a full sister to that Hardwood Freckles gyp. Further back, he has a very high concentration of Hershberger breeding.

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Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.

Posted by wkfii on 09-28-2006 09:47 PM:

Re: Cross Bred Hounds

quote:
Originally posted by JOE H BROOKS
I had gotten the information, about Johnson's Banjo, from an old article, written years ago in the American Cooner, it might have been one about James Merchant or Tim Ball, i really can't remember. It said that Banjo, was the real deal, but he had a thin hair coat and got sick from hunting, him on a river, in the cold of winter, he later died from it. It said, he was a hell of a tree dog, that, he passed it, on in his genes, to Banjo II, House's Chief, Singing Banjo, Grass Run Banjo and all the others, that came from him. I had an old black headed, mostly white walker male out of Singing Banjo and Derickson's Kentucky Jude, he was for ever more a tree dog. In some old pedigree's, i think going back to Tarleton's Bawling Bowser, he was U.S. Aling's Singing Sue's daddy, who was, Singing Banjo's Mother. I think you will find Mountain Music Blue and Mountain Music Blaze, some of the foundation stock, of the bluetick breed, it's in there.

That Kentucky Judy must have been one fine hound. She is one of the mothers of the Walker breed.

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Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.

Posted by wildbill on 09-28-2006 10:03 PM:

i love the conformation on bearhunters speck dog ,,
i think he is how a walker hound should look ..
some miss clarall/platum blonde could wash them ticks off him ,,lol..

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Posted by Jerry Gullett on 09-28-2006 10:05 PM:

i think they should let them reg cross hounds as they areso a man has the opertunity to show what he done and not make people to bleave some thing is one thing and its not what it suposed to be but u know that bird dogs and sheperds have been used in coon hound

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Posted by Bear on 09-28-2006 10:06 PM:

Re: Re: Cross Bred

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii

Fifth, is Bearhunter with his Speck. Speck is a registered English. Is he not a nice looking hound? I cannot imagine Sam feeding him if he did not perform.

Thanks Bill,yes he performs.And yes if you go back in his pedigree he has walker.Most notably Hardtime Speck.
Some more eye candy.

Specks sire PR Saddle Mt Hammer

Posted by wkfii on 09-28-2006 11:35 PM:

Eye candy....

you're not refering to yourself are you? LOL

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Member of the NAADP

Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.

Posted by Bear on 09-29-2006 12:07 AM:

Re: Eye candy....

quote:
Originally posted by wkfii
you're not refering to yourself are you? LOL

LOL nope

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