UKC Forums - All Grand ... Good Or Not?

Pages (5): « 1 [2] 3 4 » ... Last »
Show all 103 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- All Grand ... Good Or Not? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=111122)

Posted by john r. kincaid on 09-13-2006 12:15 AM:

When you get right down to it I think the problem is not the all grand pedigree but money. I beleive once again just like alot of other good things, money is what is hurting breeding today! This includes all grand and any other titles. Now dont get me wrong, putting a title on a dog is great. To me it is a feeling of self accomplishment for me and my dog, but too many people are in this game for nothing more then the money! I have a dog here now that will die on my place. A couple of hunters have bred females to him and I hope they turn out as good as him. I go to the hunts when there is a local one and if Im off work. I finished him to NTCH in three hunts. Hes not the best dog Ive owned nor the best out there, I know this but I like him. He is a coondog in any mans eyes. I have never nor will I ever take a dime from someone breeding a female to him. I might take a pup if I decide I need one. I will know what kind of female Im breeding and I dont mean just what the papers say!I mean in the woods, or my dog wont breed her. I also dont expect anyone else to breed to my dog without knowing what they are getting. The females he has bred are owned by hard coonhunters who have spent night after night in all conditions in the woods with my dog, and liked what they saw. Bottom line is I want good pups, time will tell if this dog is capable of reproducing them, butif he cant I will know it is not because the sire and dam were weak. If everyone would breed like this then you would see a better coondog!

Posted by mjflores on 09-13-2006 01:21 AM:

Who says that buying an All Grand is a curse? Lets face it, buying a pup is a huge crap shoot. Buying an All Grand pup is a crap shoot too..but odds are you're more likely to end up with a coondog in the end. Thats why people buy them, and thats why people breed them and ask so much money for them. How many adult dogs with an ALL Grand pedigree are on here for sale? Not many, that must mean something. I think people are just looking to increase their odds of buying a dog who will finish into a coon dog, thats all. usually in an All Grand pedigree, there are also a few dogs on the reproducers list. It's all about bettering your chances of success, thats all. I'm not saying you cant breed 2 PR dogs and get some nice ones...it's all a crap shoot...but when ya see an edge ya go for it.

__________________
Home Of:

NTCH GRCH 'PR' Stylish Dolly
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Cruiser
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Dancer

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-13-2006 01:39 AM:

have you

bought any all grand pups?

__________________
Home of:
- Gr. Nite Ch. Iowa County Crybabe
- Nite Ch. Hickory Nut Dan
- Gr. CH Nite Ch. Hickory Nut Dan II
- CH. Gr. Nite Ch. Hickory Nut Dan III 2008 Performance Sire
- CH. Gr.Nite Ch. Hickory Nut Dan IV 2004 ukc world hunt finalist
- Ch. Gr.Nite Ch. Mounds Creek Sassy II
- Nite Ch. Hickory Nut Bucky HTX 3 wins towards grnite
- GrCh.GrNtCh Hickory Nut Bawlie HTX
-Nite ch. PR Iowa County CryBaby II 2013 Badger State Hunt Champion
qualified for 2013 UKC World Hunt
CH Nitech She Hate Me (scar) HTX Iowa County Kennels

Posted by mjflores on 09-13-2006 02:35 AM:

Me? Yes, I have an All Grand English.

__________________
Home Of:

NTCH GRCH 'PR' Stylish Dolly
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Cruiser
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Dancer

Posted by jay brademeyer on 09-13-2006 02:56 AM:

the all grand ped is what we want , your chances should be better. i said should , but its not a guarentee. but just because you have a male or female out of an all grand cross doesn't make it worthy of the breeding pen. they need to prove they have the desired genetic traits that will make them worthy of breeding.
... i seen a add on treeing walker clasified that said they had a young female for sale out of an all grand cross they raised a litter of pups off. then started hunting her and decided they were not satisfied with the dogs performance , and wanted to sell her. i think that should have been determined that before the bred her. the pups might turn out , but that is not smart breeding .

__________________
JAMES RIVER HOUND KENNEL
JAY BRADEMEYER 701 308 0490
Home of the late Ntch Lipper's Lip Lock Lizzy, Ntch Moonshiners Sassy, and 88 Walker Days Winner Grntch Ceder Hill Sass

"Building on a solid foundation starts on the bottom side"

Posted by jay brademeyer on 09-13-2006 02:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by wade hahn
you no what Ollie said "you breed one little runt pig to anouther litttle runt pig you dont get much"

old ollie erwin was right on the money .

Posted by al jackson on 09-13-2006 03:01 AM:

Re: have you dan dog

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
bought any all grand pups?

he said yes he has bought a all grand dan dog how about you.

why do you finish your dogs to grand.

__________________
GR.NT.CH.BEAR SPRINGS CRICKET
CH.NT.CH.BEAR SPRINGS KATE

YOU CAN CALL ME MR.JACKSON

Posted by JIMHILL on 09-13-2006 03:13 AM:

Re: Re: have you dan dog

quote:
Originally posted by al jackson
he said yes he has bought a all grand dan dog how about you.

why do you finish your dogs to grand.

why does he finish his dogs to grand did u ask???

__________________
651 775 1783
Nitech Tree Talken Topper(1 win towards grand)
Nitech Flat Creek Mickey(2 wins towards grand )
pr Dads Little Joule
pr Couler Valley Dolly(aka) Freak Show
pr Hill&Beckers Backwoods alley
Walkers For Life

Posted by al jackson on 09-13-2006 03:22 AM:

Re: Re: Re: have you dan dog

quote:
Originally posted by JIMHILL
why does he finish his dogs to grand did u ask???

correct jim

__________________
GR.NT.CH.BEAR SPRINGS CRICKET
CH.NT.CH.BEAR SPRINGS KATE

YOU CAN CALL ME MR.JACKSON

Posted by JIMHILL on 09-13-2006 03:53 AM:

i guess what i mean is why are u asking that al

Posted by JIMHILL on 09-13-2006 03:54 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: have you dan dog

quote:
Originally posted by al jackson
correct jim

why do u think cause he can

Posted by al jackson on 09-13-2006 03:59 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: have you dan dog

quote:
Originally posted by JIMHILL
why do u think cause he can

well if i am reading his post right that means nothing to him so why do it .

__________________
GR.NT.CH.BEAR SPRINGS CRICKET
CH.NT.CH.BEAR SPRINGS KATE

YOU CAN CALL ME MR.JACKSON

Posted by john r. kincaid on 09-13-2006 03:59 AM:

MJFLORES I can agree with you to some extent. If you are just taking a shot in the dark of what kinda dog you end up with than an all grand probably does improve your odds. I would have to say that just about any grntch has to be a dog that can and will tree coon, at least in the right situation. If you have ever been around the old ACHA world hunt you will know that there has been some, winning, big name UKC grntch hounds that will not even go hunting by themselves when the top twenty hunt by themselves. Im not in no way nocking grntch dogs but the point Im trying to make is that ive hunted with many GRntch dogs that I absolutely did not like, nor would I consider even close to being breeding stock. I think a person would be much better off buying a pup out of two dogs that he really likes, even if they do not have the titles or all grand pedigree than giving high dollar for a pup just because it does. I feel anyone that buys a pup that is all gr without ever hunting with the sire and dam is simply buying the pup in hopes that it turns out so that they can continue the cycle and make some bucks themselves. They really dont care about the individual traits of the pup as long as it finishes to grnt. Therefore they are more interested in making money than they are in making a better coondog.

Posted by mjflores on 09-13-2006 02:13 PM:

Thats true to some extent John. But, Maybe I'm a little different than most. If my all grand english pup turns into a coondog, I'll put him in the hunts. I may or may not breed him...I'm not a breeder and dont really want to become one. In my neck of the woods there arent any English dogs to speak of so...the opportunity probably wouldnt be there anyway. I plan to get him the title he deserves to wear if he can do it, thats all. I'll offer the man who bred the litter a free stud service if he thinks it'll help what he's doing then, if not then no big deal. The dog I'm pushing now is a walker I bought because I liked how the sire hunted...he's a dual grand now but when he had his litter he was just show CH. The dam is a PR country fur dog...nothing special. It made a good cross and he's hunting and treeing on his own. Some people, like myself..are just looking for good dogs, or to better their chances of spending all that pup time and actually having a hound you can hunt in the end. Like I said..puppies are a crap shoot but in my mind, you improve your chances by buying all grand stock, even if it's a small chance. I'm the last one to care about titles...I just enjoy going out and treeing a coon, and hearing good dog work. Titles are just a little something extra...but they sure look nice infront of a dogs name!! haha

__________________
Home Of:

NTCH GRCH 'PR' Stylish Dolly
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Cruiser
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Dancer

Posted by Cody Merritt on 09-13-2006 02:43 PM:

I would rather have a dog without papers at all that is a COONDOG than an all grand dog that is decent. I have seen alot of grand nite dogs that i wouldnt give 5 dollars for and i have seen some good ones to.

Cody

__________________
Treat Mountain Kennels
Owned by,
Cody Merritt
55 West Rd.
Cedartown Ga. 30125
(678) 918-6501

Home of,
PKC CH UKC CH GRNITECH 'PR' DUCK"S HAMMERING BUCK
NITECH 'PR' Raging Dixie II
'PR' Big Time Roxie
'PR' Nocturnal Banjo
'PR' Hammering Anne

Posted by ark1111o on 09-13-2006 03:20 PM:

When you restrict yourself to breeding only to a all grand male, you are hurting yourself and the breed. For instance, you have two dogs, one outstanding dog that does not have an all grand ped, the other dog has an all grand, but lacks ability. Well if you have got to breed to an all grand, you just shortened yourself. There are a few high dollar pup factories out there, but believe me, they are there for their own pocket book, not your best interest. Most of these pup factories with up to lord knows how many all grand females, of which they have bought, are there for one reason MONEY, YOUR MONEY. Everybody loves to have titles, me included, but don't never budge an inch on ability and leave that all GRAND CLUB alone.

Posted by Christy on 09-13-2006 04:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ark1111o
When you restrict yourself to breeding only to a all grand male, you are hurting yourself and the breed. For instance, you have two dogs, one outstanding dog that does not have an all grand ped, the other dog has an all grand, but lacks ability. Well if you have got to breed to an all grand, you just shortened yourself. There are a few high dollar pup factories out there, but believe me, they are there for their own pocket book, not your best interest. Most of these pup factories with up to lord knows how many all grand females, of which they have bought, are there for one reason MONEY, YOUR MONEY. Everybody loves to have titles, me included, but don't never budge an inch on ability and leave that all GRAND CLUB alone.

EXACTLY!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
I'VE NEVER BEEN THAT HOT ON ALL GRANDS. SURE SKEETER'S PEDIGREE WOULD BE ALL GRAND IF SHE WAS, BUT SHE IS NOT IN OUR KENNEL BECAUSE OF HER PEDIGREE.

WITH US, COON DOGS COME FIRST, PEDIGREES SECOND. SURE IT'S NICE TO HAVE A NICE LOOKING PEDIGREE ON PUPS.

BUT WHAT PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND IS THIS.

EVERYONE WANTS TO GET BACK THE "COON DOGS LIKE WE USED TO HAVE" LOOK BACK AT ALL THE "COON DOGS" BACK THEN, AND SEE HOW MANY HAD "ALL GRAND PEDIGREES."

NONE. MOST WERE PR WITH A COUPLE OF NTCH OR GRNTCH IF YOU WERE LUCKY.

IF PEOPLE WOULD GET BACK TO BREEDING FOR COON DOGS, AND NOT PEDIGREED PUPS I THINK THEY WOULD BE ALOT MORE SATISFIED WITH THE OUTCOME.

WHEN WE BRED SID AND SKEETER WE BRED BECAUSE OF THEIR ABILITIES IN THE WOODS, NOT THEIR PEDIGREES. AND IT'S WORKING AND IS TURNING OUT TO BE A POWERHOUSE CROSS. IT WORKED THE FIRST TIME, AND IS WORKING THE 2ND TIME.

__________________
HOME OF TEAM SID!!!-now on Facebook!!
"WHERE PLEASURE HUNTERS WIN!!!"-Christy Clayton
GO TEAM SID!!!

*GRCH NTCH'PR'RB'S Rock River Sid-R.I.P.

*CH'PR'Jet's Tember Shakin Sadie (UKC 2ND)
*Banjo

Independent Consultant for Jamberry Nails!! Check them out!!

Quincy-828-269-8768
OR Christy-828-269-4678---If we dont answer, please leave a message!!!

EVERYTHING happens for a reason.

Posted by mjflores on 09-13-2006 04:17 PM:

Actually, I'd rather not have back the hounds we used to have. Things always become better over time in our minds eye, but doesnt anyone remember the hounds that hunted close, were trashy, and didnt stay treed? LOL

I doubt anyone promoting an All Grand Stud or female would deny breeding rights to a dog that they knew was a real solid hunter but didnt have a title. There's alot of people out there with all grand males and females that are working hard to better the breed..not just to make money. Lets try not to lump everyone into one class ok? It's crazy to think that a dog with a 3 or 4 gen all grand pedigree..comes from all me-too slick treeing idiots. There's plenty of coondog in there, and those traits are passed on and are inheritable. I swear more often than not the ones bashing the all grand programs are the ones that are too cheap or cant afford to try a pup out of it.

__________________
Home Of:

NTCH GRCH 'PR' Stylish Dolly
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Cruiser
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Dancer

Posted by Christy on 09-13-2006 04:31 PM:

I'M NOT...

BASHING ANYONE FOR ANYTHING. OR TRYING TO LUMP ANYONE INTO ANY CERTAIN CLASS.

I'M JUST SAYING THAT I AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT.

quote:
When you restrict yourself to breeding only to a all grand male, you are hurting yourself and the breed. For instance, you have two dogs, one outstanding dog that does not have an all grand ped, the other dog has an all grand, but lacks ability. Well if you have got to breed to an all grand, you just shortened yourself. There are a few high dollar pup factories out there, but believe me, they are there for their own pocket book, not your best interest. Most of these pup factories with up to lord knows how many all grand females, of which they have bought, are there for one reason MONEY, YOUR MONEY. Everybody loves to have titles, me included, but don't never budge an inch on ability and leave that all GRAND CLUB alone.

Posted by coon dawg on 09-13-2006 04:42 PM:

............

quote:
Originally posted by mjflores
Actually, I'd rather not have back the hounds we used to have. Things always become better over time in our minds eye, but doesnt anyone remember the hounds that hunted close, were trashy, and didnt stay treed? LOL

I doubt anyone promoting an All Grand Stud or female would deny breeding rights to a dog that they knew was a real solid hunter but didnt have a title. There's alot of people out there with all grand males and females that are working hard to better the breed..not just to make money. Lets try not to lump everyone into one class ok? It's crazy to think that a dog with a 3 or 4 gen all grand pedigree..comes from all me-too slick treeing idiots. There's plenty of coondog in there, and those traits are passed on and are inheritable. I swear more often than not the ones bashing the all grand programs are the ones that are too cheap or cant afford to try a pup out of it.

..........the trashy ones are still around..........wouldn't breed to one if it was a 6 generation all grand.........lol

__________________
Proud member of the NAADP

Posted by ItsOlMander on 09-13-2006 06:11 PM:

who says a titled or all grand dog is more of a coondog than a 'pr' dog? i dont see how it improves your odds to get a pup to turn out to be a coondog, it takes more than just titled parents or even parents that are coondogs to make a pup with potential into a coondog... just because a dog has a nitech or grnitech title dosnt make it a coondog and dosnt mean its going to reproduce. an all grand pedigree dosnt mean its an all coondog pedigree

__________________
-Amanda

- In Loving Memory of -
DEEP SPRINGS BLACK MAX
&
LEVIS SOUTHERN BLUE DOC

Posted by Russell Boyette on 09-13-2006 06:19 PM:

The fact is,

People who have an All-Grand stud are alwasy going to promote him as an All-Grand, and how that's so much better than anything else out there. The people who's stud does not have an All-Grand pedigree are going to say that All-Grand means nothing, and that they wouldnt have one if it were given to them.

We will never know who is right because most probably both are wrong.

__________________
Beaver Creek Kennels
beavercreekkennels@ymail.com
(205) 712-4326

� PKC Ch 'PR' Triple X-Rated
http://www.hunt101.com/img/342861.jpg

� NITECH Beaver Creek Knothead
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/RBoyette/KnotHead-2.jpg

� Death Row Psycho aka "De"
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/RBoyette/Dee11-10-a.jpg

� 'PR' Skuna River Style
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/RBoyette/Stone2.jpg

**R.I.P.**
UKC NITECH - PKC CH
'PR'Beaver Creek Stylish Nellie
http://www.hunt101.com/img/369634.jpg

Posted by JIMHILL on 09-13-2006 06:57 PM:

anyone that is a real coon hunter knows it means nothing its just paper if u ask me

Posted by mjflores on 09-13-2006 07:04 PM:

so, just to make sure I understand you Jim, only fake pretend coonhunters buy "All Grand" dogs? Is that what you're saying?

__________________
Home Of:

NTCH GRCH 'PR' Stylish Dolly
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Cruiser
'PR' Bear Brook Midnight Dancer

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 09-13-2006 07:04 PM:

A nice coondog with an all grand pedigree is worth more than the same calibre coondog that is not all grand.It is just chrome.

A $hiteater with an all grand pedigree is worth exactly the same as a $hiteater without an all grand pedigree....Nothing.

The All Grands get a bad rap in a lot of cases as people say they're just breeding papers,which is not good,but most of the all grand papers i own or have looked at are stacked from the ground up with the very best reproducing hunt winning coondogs on the planet,if that percentage wise doesn't increase the odds....nothing will.

To steal a TBall quote "it's all about percentages....stupid".lol

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:00 PM.

Pages (5): « 1 [2] 3 4 » ... Last »
Show all 103 posts from this thread on one page