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judging and standards

I've shown dogs nearly 14 years now of which 11 have been in UKC events, conformation and agility. I've bred many CH's and managed to get my old dog of 8 1/2 years old into the top ten last year besides earning his GR CH title along the way, and his ASCA CH also last year under some esteemed ASCA breeder judges. And I still don't feel that I know enough of my own breed standard to stand in the center of the ring to judge. At times, I have to admit that I am not objective enough yet, to do it. Being a breeder, I also know many of the nuances of my own breed that often judges who do not know the breed as intimately will probably never know and yet which I feel are important but.......are measured differently by others. I think that on the whole, the judges want to 'pick' out the best dog in front of them that day but.....boy, standing at ringside and watching, it looks really hard in many of the shows that I've watched and competed in. In some shows, it doesn't look that hard, I mean, the good dog sometimes can stand out like a sore thumb but......it's still the judge's job to find that 'good' dog each time. I hope that more judges will read this thread and become more 'objective' in their search for their 'right' dog in their show ring in the future. As Mark said, it's a priviledge to judge.
-donna

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-donna

Interesting

I think sometimes we go to shows because we have some loyalty to a particular club and even though the judges may not be to our liking, we go anyway and hope to salvage some sort of win somewhere along the line. There are a few clubs whose shows I try to get to each year. But when the judging panel is off the mark for my dogs and I know it from past experience I just don't go. Sometimes I don't go if I've gotten unfavorable reviews from more than one other Eskie breeder regarding an upcoming panel although I usually try to give a judge at least one chance before assigning them to my "do not show to" list. Those folks who have legitimate complaints should file those complaints with the show sponsoring club and to UKC. Mark said they don't receive even 10 complaints a year. Most people just grumble and complain to folks who really can't do anything about poor judging. If John Chance did file a complaint, good for you John! Most of us don't. Right or wrong, we all have the opportunity to put our thoughts down on paper and make it count. Perhaps more of us should remember that it is an option. The folks at the club level and the folks at UKC are all bright enough to figure out if the complaint has merit.

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Sally Bedow
BeSota American Eskimos
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Hi Cheri-

thanks for sharing your experience. I have seen these judges preform the examination you have stated and have even taken the time to discuss the proceedure with them. They are the only judges who I have seen do this. You can be assured that I will not when it comes to judging rats!

We miss you up here!!

This has turned into a very educational thread and I have learned a great deal.

I would like to share with everyone that UKC has a universal disqualification of extreme shyness in all breeds.

Have a great weekend.

Valerie

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universal DQ

WOW Valerie, thanks for pointing that universal disqualification out to us. I have honestly not looked at other breed standards before until you had just point this single fact out since I do not show other breeds at all. Now knowing that it's a universal DQ, it makes that judge's decision even more distasteful to me as it's one that ALL UKC judges would be aware of. Here I was thinking that this particular judge may not know each of the DQ faults of an australian shepherd. I just don't know what to say now but......WOW, he is on my DNS list.
-donna

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-donna

Judging the Standard

I have met some WONDERFUL judges.

To me, the reason we show, is to evaluate our breeding stock.
The judges are great at pointing out the good, as well as the things that can be improved by proper breeding management.
I think it’s a great tool and we certainly have our favorite judges.
Lynn for example, well Ive never had a win under her. But
I will drive far to see her as she really knows our breed and is so informative. She will take time after the show to explain gates, and suggest ideas for improvement on a line.

And then there are a couple others.... which are not so informative.
I have been asked in the ring if a blue eye was a DQ in my breed by the judge. Since I am basically paying for them to evaluate my dogs, I would think he should know the standard.

I also saw a judge try to give a "fault" to a dog with snownose.
Not a Fault per OUR breed standard, but it is in HER BREED. So she had that type of Bias. That needs to be controlled. A good judge, but she needs to leave bias out.

One of the things I have seen over the past year, are more and more large dogs in our breed. I know of at least 4 Champions, and one grCH that are clearly over height for the breed standard.
17 1/2 inches is a DQ. And yet there they are these 18+ inch dogs with titles. In the last several years of showing, I have yet to see one judge or steward measure a dog with a wicket at a show.
I believe that is something that needs to be improved on. Every show venue should have a wicket; it would be a great tool for the exhibitors to measure their dogs to make sure they are in the correct class. If I am again beaten by an oversized dog, which should have a DQ,
I will ask for the wicket. And I do believe they need to have one their on stand bye. The exhibitors are mocking the judges in that they know they won’t catch it. I believe this mentality is only hurting the breed. It took many years to get them down in size and hold the conformation. They can easily get too large too quick.

I believe any judge giving a dog a title which is found to have the DQ should be reprimanded.
I pay thousands of dollars a year for my breeding stock to be evaluated. I need to have faith in them that they know the standard of which they are judging.


Over all, I have been just thrilled with the UKC judges.
I do hope that the more popular our breed becomes the more familiar they will become with it. We love to show, but we do need to have faith that they know more than us and have the right to judge our breed. For the most part they are very knowledgeable and helpful. But for those others, well, they need to realize that we are paying for the service of a proper evaluation of our breeding stock compared to the breed standard. That service needs to be rendered correctly and without BIAS. This includes bias from their own breed standard, from exhibitors they socialize with at judge’s dinners, from other breeder/judges, and from club contacts.

They need to judge the DOGs ONLY or they are only harming the future of the breed.

Personally I would like EVERY Alaskan Klee Kai in a show to have to show OFA certifications for patellas, thyroid, and cardiac, as a part of the entry form. I would like to know the dogs are sound inside, and not just pretty. I know the UK does something like that but i havent heard how it is working out for them.


Kind Regards and in all respect,

Aprilfawn

delmarkleekai.com
alaskankleekairesearch.org
gnf.org

As a show Chair and exhibitor

As a recent show chair and an exhibitor, I can tell you that you will never make everyone happy. In a dog show there will always be a loser - and there will always be someone offended that thier dog did not get put up.

Judging does have some grey and flexibilty in that not every judge will see things the same way - maybe your dog moved a little wrong - maybe a young shy dog is more true to the standard than a more seasoned obedient dog - all of these are subject to the interpretation of the judge. Some judges may prefer yellow labs to black ones etc.

Having said that - I have experienced a few cases of poor judging (very few to be honest). In our breed - I have on numerous occasions seen a dog with a written fault placed over other dogs without a written fault. In my opinion, the quality of the dogs were very equal other wise. In one case, a judge who placed the written fault BOB was questioned - and remarked that he was a fine looking dog. Yes, I would agree to that statement - but he is not a fine example by our written breed standard- unless you are saying that every other dog in the ring that day had a more grevious fault than a written fault. I do know a complaint was made to UKC. Whether is was shared with the judge by UKC I do not know.

As exhibitor and chairs - there are choices. If you feel judging was indeed poor, incorrect or discourtious, you have the right to let UKC know. If you do nothing - you are not helping the quality of UKC's program.

As exhibitors - we need to keep in mind that YES we are going to lose from time to time and poor sportsmanship and sour grapes are not what UKC is about. YES some decisions will be made that we disagree with and until we stand in judges shoes - it's not fair to drive from the back seat. If we are going to protest - it must be a valid and well researched protest.

I never mind being beaten by a quality dog even if I feel my dog is better (well of couse I think my dog is better, MY DOG IS MY DOG).

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~~~~~~~~~~~
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Grievance

As far as filing a grievance with UKC---

The following is not a grievance with a judge, but still a complaint.

I personally know of an instance last year where the BOB and winner of the Champion class was discovered to have been shown by an AKC professional handler at an UKC show. Several letters were written and sent in to UKC, and phone calls were made as well. The letters were accompanied with proof positive that this person was an AKC professional handler---A BUSINESS CARD HE GAVE OUT, ---as well as several conversations with several different exhibitors at the show. Did the UKC reverse the Champion win and award it to the Reserve Champion??? Nope!

It was my understanding that the Reserve Champion would be awarded the Champion class win if there was fraud attached to the win of the Champion. Apparently not. Absolutely nothing was done.

And before anyone asks, I am neither the owner of the Champion nor the Reserve Champion, so I have nothing to gain either way. I just want UKC to live up to the quote on all the ribbons "Honor to Whom Honor is Due". There is no honor in cheating, or fraud, which is what using a professional handler is.

I was greatly saddened and disappointed by this.

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www.toyfoxhome.com
Toy Fox Home
Cincinnati, Ohio

GrChPR Lord Falcor of Scotts (Corey)
#3 TOP TEN 2006

GrChPR Corey's Lily Magnolia (Maggie)

i agree...its a common complaint of mine. Altho.....having said that...the biggest problem around it.

THere are NO ownership police at UKC or AKC dog shows for that matter.

Who does anyone intend on enforcing the NO professional handler rule?? Its impossible.

Hence...there ARE professional handlers at UKC shows.

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No part of this message may be forwarded without permission

Re: As a show Chair and exhibitor

quote:

---

Originally posted by suzgwhite
Having said that - I have experienced a few cases of poor judging (very few to be honest). In our breed - I have on numerous occasions seen a dog with a written fault placed over other dogs without a written fault. In my opinion, the quality of the dogs were very equal other wise. In one case, a judge who placed the written fault BOB was questioned - and remarked that he was a fine looking dog. Yes, I would agree to that statement - but he is not a fine example by our written breed standard- unless you are saying that every other dog in the ring that day had a more grevious fault than a written fault. I do know a complaint was made to UKC. Whether is was shared with the judge by UKC I do not know.

---

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Re: Grievance

quote:

---

Originally posted by toyfoxhome
As far as filing a grievance with UKC---

The following is not a grievance with a judge, but still a complaint.

I personally know of an instance last year where the BOB and winner of the Champion class was discovered to have been shown by an AKC professional handler at an UKC show. Several letters were written and sent in to UKC, and phone calls were made as well. The letters were accompanied with proof positive that this person was an AKC professional handler---A BUSINESS CARD HE GAVE OUT, ---as well as several conversations with several different exhibitors at the show. Did the UKC reverse the Champion win and award it to the Reserve Champion??? Nope!

It was my understanding that the Reserve Champion would be awarded the Champion class win if there was fraud attached to the win of the Champion. Apparently not. Absolutely nothing was done.

If this person, even being a Pro Handler, was handling his own dog, isn't that allowed? I mean, if it's not, then that peron would never be able to show in UKC.

And before anyone asks, I am neither the owner of the Champion nor the Reserve Champion, so I have nothing to gain either way. I just want UKC to live up to the quote on all the ribbons "Honor to Whom Honor is Due". There is no honor in cheating, or fraud, which is what using a professional handler is.

I was greatly saddened and disappointed by this.

---

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GrendsLori

I don't know what happened........

Somehow my comment on the last post got mixed in with the other poster's comments!

So I repeat: Can a Pro Handler enter and show his OWN dog in UKC? If not then he would NEVER be able to show in this club? I know that no one showing in UKC is allowed to be paid for showing a dog in a UKC event, but what if it's his OWN dog????

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GrendsLori

A professional handler may indeed show his own dogs in the UKC.
Linda Rusinko
Wooster, Ohio

Yes, pro handlers can enter/show their own dogs. They just can't show other people's dogs, whether for money or for free as a friend. A pro handler friend of mine who moved out of state last year, showed her own dogs at UKC shows, and she was very careful not to show dogs for anyone else, including me, even though she would have only been taking in an extra dog for me for winners class, after I showed the dog/bitch in the classes. As a pro, regardless of the reason for taking in someone else's dog, she could not and would not do it.

__________________
Gail Karamalegos
Callisto Australian Shepherds
www.callistoaussies.com

This sort of thing happens in the Russell Terrier breed all the time. And in regards to:

Mark Threlfall:

quote:

---

Did you go to these 3 judges and ask them why they rewarded a dog with a disqualifying fault? If the answer is no, then you may be part of the problem, instead of a part of the solution.

---

quote:

---

"FW: UKC message board for all UKC judges from (Fanciers's Name)

Are you aware that the UKC judges have a forum for judges only, with a password to log in with over 3,000 members. I thought I would share with them your Respectful post on the UKC message board with a picture of you ,a very nice picture I may add.

---

quote:

---

As UKC judges we do VALUE your opinion always and be sure we will REMEMBER you and your post from this day forward.
Yours Respectfully (Judges Name)

---

Shana said..."What our opinions are and whether we like eachother or not, should not have one ounce to do with the Judging that takes place in a ring. A Judge should conduct themselves and be much like any other officiating a sport, such as a Referee/Umpire."

I agree Shana!

__________________
Turning Leaf Russells
Cathy-Jo

"Striving for excellence in soundness and type, and better development through selective breeding."

www.turningleafrussells.com
Since 1993

Forgive me if i am wrong but i have searched the FCI website for a Russell Terrier breed standard and cannot find one. Is the Russell Terrier an FCI breed?
The UKC have issued a standard for a breed which is only recognized in the United States, why would UKC have to use an FCI breed standard for a breed which does not exsist outside of the United States. The breed standard you are trying to force upon the Russell Terrier is that of the Jack Russell Terrier in the FCI as far as i can gather, this is ludicrous. If your dogs are Jack Russell Terriers then why not register them in the UKC Jack Russell Terrier group, your breed standard is already catered for there.

Angela,
I think this very issue has been explained to death already. All you have to do is read the current UKC Russell Terrier breed standard to understand it. We also previously posted the letter written to the English Jack Russell Terrier Club, (now American Russell Terrier Club) the club that the UKC used for their foundation stock for the Russell Terrier. It is very clear in that letter what the original intent was.

Haven't several of your IKC (FCI country) registered JRTs been registered in the US as Russell Terriers? I would think you of all people would understand this topic because of that alone?

__________________
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Vista Real Russells
~Since 1995
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FS Vista Real's Jackie
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FS Vista Real's Darby, CGC, EJRTC GTG Cert., EJRTC Racing Champion

Huh? Vistarr who were you talking too? I do not see any one of that name on here.
Confused......................oh well
Genevieve.

Sorry, my mistake.

Thank you for signing your name.

Do you have any UKC Russell Terriers? Or UKC Jack Russell Terriers?

__________________
Kelli Van Liew
Vista Real Russells
~Since 1995
Foundation Stock Jack Russell Terrier Breeder
CERF, BAER, OFA Patella #'s for 3 generations
GRCH Vista Real's Travelin' Dangle
GRCH Vista Real's Belgium Babe, RBIMBS Top Ten 2007 & 2009 ARTC Racing Champion
GRCH Vista Real's Rowdy Rocky Top Ten 2004 ARTC GTG Cert., ARTC Racing Champion
GRCH Farr West Reese of Vista Real Top Ten 2004
CH Vista Real's Paloma Pearl
CH FS Elk Creek Ruby of Vista Real
CH FS Elk Creek Rio of Vista Real Top Ten 2003 EJRTC GTG Cert.
CH Vista Real's Hopefull Amy 1 GR Leg
CH Suzan's Pride Chahir
CH Folly Farms Loosey 1 GR Leg ARTC GTG Cert
FS Vista Real's Lawless Lucy EJRTC GTG Cert.
FS Vista Real's Jackie
FS Vista Real's Rowdy Roxie
FS Vista Real's Ellie Mae
FS Belle of Vista Real
FS Vista Real's Darby, CGC, EJRTC GTG Cert., EJRTC Racing Champion

See my profile. I do not think i need to take up anymore of this thread as i have said all i wanted to.
G.

HI I visited your profile and saw where you had posted this last year... http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...;threadid=84467
It is a post announcing the URTA (United Russell Terrier Association) Carolina Event in April of 2006.

Are you a member of the URTA? You can visit the URTA online here
http://www.russellterrier.org/

__________________
Turning Leaf Russells
Cathy-Jo

"Striving for excellence in soundness and type, and better development through selective breeding."

www.turningleafrussells.com
Since 1993

quote:

---

Originally posted by Turning Leaf
HI I visited your profile and saw where you had posted this last year... http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...;threadid=84467
It is a post announcing the URTA (United Russell Terrier Association) Carolina Event in April of 2006.

Are you a member of the URTA? You can visit the URTA online here
http://www.russellterrier.org/

---

There seems to be confusion regarding my post above so ---->

The dog was neither owned nor co-owned by the handler. The handler told me himself that his payment was breeding rights to another dog the owner had.

These facts were included in the report to UKC. Still, no action was taken. Disappointing to say the least.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Thanks

__________________
www.toyfoxhome.com
Toy Fox Home
Cincinnati, Ohio

GrChPR Lord Falcor of Scotts (Corey)
#3 TOP TEN 2006

GrChPR Corey's Lily Magnolia (Maggie)

quote:

---

Originally posted by marsham
in other registries, the ring table has a book of standards for the judges to consult if necessary. Does UKC have the same(not sure, just asking)

---

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