UKC Forums - Proposal 3 - Coming in to Tree After Judge Arrives

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-- Proposal 3 - Coming in to Tree After Judge Arrives (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928518401)

Posted by Blaine Stout on 05-27-2019 11:55 PM:

Guess I will probably never be asked to judge a big hunt then. I take rule to their literal meaning in black and white. I feel if we cant make the determination that coming into the tree has to mean coming in and showing treed then if i tree my dog doesn't mean he has to stay at that tree he just has to be in the relative area I tree him in when we get to it. And a whole other version of each handlers definition of "tree".

I do love the good judge.ent part of that. Under my judgement he would get minused on track for coming in regardless of anything in tree or not.

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Posted by shawnstovall on 05-28-2019 02:40 AM:

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Posted by Rip on 05-28-2019 03:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Here's your first post replying to me. You was wrong plain and simple
iginally posted by sleepy head
I don't think "dog coming to tree" includes dog trailing through checking tree and moving on. At least it shouldn't

All dogs at the tree MUST be handled. There is no leeway here. If the dog comes in to the tree he has to be handled. No choice. For good or bad the dog is supposed to be handled by rule. It is a command.
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Yes, MUST means MUST. It does't matter why the dog came into the tree. A big state hunt was lost on that. Had to catch the dog. Handler said it was just going to trail on by, it didn't matter he came in to a tree that was being scored and he had to be handled by rule dog was minused for coming in after the judge and a coon seen. Handler questioned because he said the dog was just checking and they should have allowed the dog the chance to trail on through. It didn't matter he had to be handled because he was at a tree that was being scored.

The rule does't say all dogs at the tree except if I don't think it is going to stay there must be treed it says all dogs at the tree MUST be handled. AT the tree and ON the tree/showing treed/treeing satisfactorily are two separate things but if you didn't require all dogs at the tree regardless of why they are there to be handled then nobody would ever handle a loose treedog or one that was caught off tree they would try to leave it loose in hopes that it goes on and trees another coon. That's the reason for the rule.

That is black and white you can't get around it.

The only judgement is whether or not the dog is at the tree, there is absolutely no judgement in handling a dog at the tree. If hes there he has to be handled no matter what you think he may be doing.

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Posted by Blaine Stout on 05-29-2019 12:42 AM:

But there is gray area in what you consider at the tree. If my dog bawls on track chops on tree every dump and he comes past the tree with nose on the ground bawling then I am not handling him. As I wouldn't ask anyone else to handle theirs if it was doing the same. So is 5 ft away coming in or 10 ft or 30 yards? Coming into the tree has to mean coming in and showing treed otherwise it is to everyone's discretion as to what distance they decide is "at the tree" or "coming into the tree"

Posted by pamjohnson on 05-29-2019 01:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blaine Stout
But there is gray area in what you consider at the tree. If my dog bawls on track chops on tree every dump and he comes past the tree with nose on the ground bawling then I am not handling him. As I wouldn't ask anyone else to handle theirs if it was doing the same. So is 5 ft away coming in or 10 ft or 30 yards? Coming into the tree has to mean coming in and showing treed otherwise it is to everyone's discretion as to what distance they decide is "at the tree" or "coming into the tree"

it's not a gray area. It's called taking advantage and trying to justify it.

Posted by Blaine Stout on 05-29-2019 02:08 AM:

My thoughts exactly it opens up a loop hole in which your dog comes by I can tell you to handle it and it gets minused when it wasnt doing anything wrong.

Posted by Rip on 05-29-2019 02:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blaine Stout
But there is gray area in what you consider at the tree. If my dog bawls on track chops on tree every dump and he comes past the tree with nose on the ground bawling then I am not handling him. As I wouldn't ask anyone else to handle theirs if it was doing the same. So is 5 ft away coming in or 10 ft or 30 yards? Coming into the tree has to mean coming in and showing treed otherwise it is to everyone's discretion as to what distance they decide is "at the tree" or "coming into the tree"

Allen has clearly stated even in the post you posted the dog doesn't need to show any intrest in the tree to be considered "at" the tree.

Yes "at" the tree is the judgment in this equation. Is it 10 yards? 10 feet? You have to be there to decide but if the dog comes in there is no choice it must be handled and it is scored depending on what the other dogs have in the tree.

Think about it like this, if you used your definition of having to be ON the tree to be considered "at" the tree then every dog that was not scored to be treeing satisfactorily would have to be left loose to disrupt or do whatever they want. You can't have dogs running everywhere while you are trying to score a tree. If they are there then you have no choice but to handle them by the rules because it says all dogs "at" the tree must be handled.

Like Allen said even in what you quoted they do not have to show treed or show intrest in the tree to be considered "at" the tree just if they are in the area.

Would you want someone that has a loose tree dog to just be able to say "no I'm not handling my dog" because they are not belly up on the wood and them go over 30 feet and tree a coon on you that your dog had no chance to tree?

Heck using the definition that they have to show treed to be at the tree I would never handle a dog that came in late nor that was loose I would just claim that we need to see what it will do.

We can't do that. If they are there they need to be handled.

But yes "at" the tree is the only judgment in this whole equation. If they are "at" the tree the rules are clear you must handle them.

Depends on what you as a judge say is "at" the tree.

As for me, I am very consistent if it is there it is handled no matter whos dog it is or when it gets there.

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Posted by Blaine Stout on 05-29-2019 02:49 PM:

But even loose tree dogs show treed. And I'm not saying dont handle them. But they should be minused for coming off track if the are not treeing but standing around the tree. I am just saying I should not be made to handle a dog that is obviously running track if it comes by the tree. Coonhounds have to do 2 things open on track per the rules and tree per the rules. I would love to do away with the rule that says only one dog must stay barking to not minus for leaving. If I get to tree and your dog is just standing there not doing anything then you shouldn't get plus points. But that is all just my opinion. But I have literally watched dogs with nose on ground tracking right past the base of trees with dogs treeing on them and pushing past and having the coon several feet away in different tree.

But I will agree with you I am consistent on how I judge and my definition of "at" the tree. No matter if it's my dog or anyone elses.

Posted by Rocketman55 on 05-30-2019 05:06 AM:

Well I will admit I have only scanned through the conversations and have not read them all throughly but from what I am seeing, most positions on this issue seem to be failing to consider one important part of the intent of this rule.

Now maybe I'm wrong, and if so I'm sure someone will call me out if I am, but may I offer another point of this situation to consider.

You see many, many years ago, one of , the reason dogs were not misused for coming into a tree after the 5 minutes were up was because the rules folks felt that due to the fact that several folks were arriving at a tree with lights flashing and trying to catch their dogs, and some folks flashing their lights up in the tree to gain an advantage of catching the coons eye with all the commotion going on at the bottom of the tree, that this may be considered excessive pressure/potential interference, and those dogs caught in that situation, were given the benefit of the doubt that they may not have come in to that tree had all this commotion not have gone on, so they were given a free pass (so to speak) unless the coon was seen.

Has a police officer ever given you a free pass for speeding? And especially so, if you had a justifiable reason for speeding, such as Maybe wife is in labor and about to deliver in the car.

You see back in the day, the rules had some flexibility if there were good reasons why a dog might do something it doesn't normally do, so long as there was a justifiable reason for doing so. Today we want there to be no reason to give the benefit of the doubt. If the do the crime, they must pay their debt, no matter the reason for why they did it.

What was it that you were forgiven for today??

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-30-2019 11:43 AM:

If a dog is so slow that the other dogs get treed, wait 5 minutes and cast walks to them and then the dog finally trails by he needs to be handled and not allowed to trail around while the cast shines the tree.

Posted by Sgraves on 05-30-2019 12:47 PM:

This is not a hard one to figure out. Guys, face it a minus is a hard pill to swallow. People will do anything to keep from getting them. Here’s my 2 cents. We have 5 minutes to wait before tree is closed. According on how far you have to walk after tree is closed say another 2 minutes. When judge gets to tree if your dog comes in shortly after his butt needs his strick points minused . Plain an simple , take your minus an move on. If it takes a dog 5 to 8 minutes to make it to that tree , face the facts , he quit whatever you struck him in on. He deserves nothing but minus from that tree.

Posted by sleepy head on 05-30-2019 01:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If a dog is so slow that the other dogs get treed, wait 5 minutes and cast walks to them and then the dog finally trails by he needs to be handled and not allowed to trail around while the cast shines the tree.

Your assuming he's running the same coon

Posted by H DOG on 05-30-2019 01:27 PM:

The rules are fine just the way they are they don't need changed

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 05-30-2019 02:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by H DOG
The rules are fine just the way they are they don't need changed

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. The saved by the judge rule and those dogs recieving circle points on slicks and off game is one of the worse rules ever conceived!

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 05-30-2019 04:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
If a dog is so slow that the other dogs get treed, wait 5 minutes and cast walks to them and then the dog finally trails by he needs to be handled and not allowed to trail around while the cast shines the tree.

So.. if that dog was trees before the 5 minutes, would you plus it up? If course not. Till the dog shows the tree... It should NOT be handled.
Example. Just happened to me. 2 dogs trailing in a swamp, 120 yards away. Dog 3 strikes 60 yards away. Falls treed. 5 minutes are up. Walk in. Dog 1, nose to the ground, 30' away, goes on past. Judge says to handle it. Had to call dog back to catch her. Dog 3 treed in a hollow log. Has a opossum. Dog that was 30' away minused for being in the vicinity of a treed opossum... Dog 2 trees 150' away... Same direction that dog 1 was trailing...

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 05-30-2019 06:31 PM:

If I am judging a cast, when a dog comes into the tree after the cast. I will direct the handler to handle their dog. That being said, I would not expect a handler to have to throw a flying body tackle to stop the dog.

The rule was originally for giving a pack animal a break for coming into all the commotion at a tree. The reason many want to change it is not all coon hounds are pack animals any more, and hunters running independent dogs don't like pack animals getting cut any slack.

So the way i see this rule change is more about what kind of hound general coon hunters want to hunt.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 05-30-2019 07:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
If I am judging a cast, when a dog comes into the tree after the cast. I will direct the handler to handle their dog. That being said, I would not expect a handler to have to throw a flying body tackle to stop the dog.

The rule was originally for giving a pack animal a break for coming into all the commotion at a tree. The reason many want to change it is not all coon hounds are pack animals any more, and hunters running independent dogs don't like pack animals getting cut any slack.

So the way i see this rule change is more about what kind of hound general coon hunters want to hunt.

No the change is about not giving circle points to dogs on slicks or off game just because they came into a tree after the judge arrives. They have either quit their track or came into a tree way late. If you go back and read the 2 options one allows for deletion of points.

Posted by sleepy head on 05-30-2019 08:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
So.. if that dog was trees before the 5 minutes, would you plus it up? If course not. Till the dog shows the tree... It should NOT be handled.
Example. Just happened to me. 2 dogs trailing in a swamp, 120 yards away. Dog 3 strikes 60 yards away. Falls treed. 5 minutes are up. Walk in. Dog 1, nose to the ground, 30' away, goes on past. Judge says to handle it. Had to call dog back to catch her. Dog 3 treed in a hollow log. Has a opossum. Dog that was 30' away minused for being in the vicinity of a treed opossum... Dog 2 trees 150' away... Same direction that dog 1 was trailing...

Seen this happen a couple weekends ago: three dogs. All struck, All are treed split but within 50 yards of each other, we go to dog A which was only 30 yards from us, we see dog B trail by and actually go up on dog A's tree come down and trail away, B trees again in less than a minute. All three were under a coon. We had good judge and no handle order was given

Posted by Treedoggmafia on 05-31-2019 10:22 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
This is not a hard one to figure out. Guys, face it a minus is a hard pill to swallow. People will do anything to keep from getting them. Here’s my 2 cents. We have 5 minutes to wait before tree is closed. According on how far you have to walk after tree is closed say another 2 minutes. When judge gets to tree if your dog comes in shortly after his butt needs his strick points minused . Plain an simple , take your minus an move on. If it takes a dog 5 to 8 minutes to make it to that tree , face the facts , he quit whatever you struck him in on. He deserves nothing but minus from that tree.

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Posted by 4play on 05-31-2019 03:34 PM:

JMO

This is the #1 rule that 'most' judges don't score right as it is now.

It needs to be BLACK and WHITE so easy that Stevie Wonder can get it right!!!

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-31-2019 04:49 PM:

Oh my goodness, isn't it amazing how many people want to change or interpret a simple rule according to their "opinion". It is already right there in black and white, no grey area here. Dog that "comes into tree" or is "at the tree" "must" be handled. Now how could you reword that to make it any clearer?

Posted by Sgraves on 05-31-2019 06:11 PM:

Mr Lambert I understand that dog must be handled. They need to be minused also. Other than making their opponent walk I believe that’s why people want their dogs an deep as possible, to get away from that junk. Will stand by what I said , dog comes in to tree after judge gets there needs his strick points minused an nothing else on that particular tree .People will get tired of standing there with their dog on the lead all pooched lip because they drew minus dog deserved.

Posted by yadkintar on 05-31-2019 06:19 PM:

It’s not no different to me than if a dog quit and come to you in an open field. It quit its track it deserves a minus.

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-31-2019 08:39 PM:

What about the dog that just quit and made the tree because it was too sorry to work the track out? Everyone wants to circle it. Shouldn't it's tree get minused instead of circled? What about the dog that quits a track because it is too hard and goes on to start another easier track? Shouldn't it get minused also? Maybe we need a lot of rule changes.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-31-2019 08:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
It’s not no different to me.....
Tar

Tarbaby, if you don't see the difference between a dog quitting a track and coming into the cast in an open field and a dog coming into the cast shining, squalling and dogs treeing then "here's your sign".

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