UKC Forums - Should silent dogs be scratched?

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-- Should silent dogs be scratched? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=456734)

Posted by patches9452 on 11-01-2011 11:52 PM:

well if silent dogs are so great you would think they would win more world hunts than others... and they might for all i know... anyone know of a stone silent dog winning ukcs world hunt... not tight im talking silent

Posted by deschmidt27 on 11-01-2011 11:59 PM:

Dave - I have hunted and hunted with silent dogs, and so you can't tell me that they always, quickly bum-rush a coon and put them up or in a hole. This means there are going to be times that they're working a track and you are sitting around waiting, and not really knowing what they are up to. In fact I don't recall ever being in a hunt where a silent dog miraculously got treed way ahead or behind open trailing hounds!

And... The point I was making was to answer why do some of us care about a dog opening on trail, when others only care about the end of the trail.

By the way... The dogs I pack usually get treed by themselves unless something else covers them. They're not perfect, but they are pretty independent. And they usually get first or second strike, so these silent dogs are no threat to me, simply because they're silent. The hunts I'm in, are usually decided by who sees their coon. But I do think hounds that are silent are not acting as hounds, which is why they should be scratched. And I've given ample reasons for why that's the case.

David Schmidt

Posted by deschmidt27 on 11-02-2011 12:10 AM:

Amazingcursouth - once again you missed my point. I wasn't comparing terrain, I was making an attempt to answer the question on this thread as to why being silent is a fault. Many keep saying that if they tree coon, who cares. And the answer is that hounds that sometimes trail a long distance, like chasing a rutting boar coon, should open, if not so you can enjoy the race, so you know where the heck they are!

And yes, if you keep everything to yourself and to those like minded people, great! But if you aren't or others aren't and these faults (by definition in the breed standard) are finding there way into the gene pool, you may be negatively impacting others. And again, we're not talking about mixed breeds, we're talking about registered hounds competing in events just for registered hounds.

David Schmidt

Posted by skeets on 11-02-2011 09:04 AM:

if my silent trailing dog trees me coons at night i think i pretty much know what hes doing when i turn him loose, i think the answer is hunting coons. i reckon our forefathers must have not liked silent dogs and thats fine and if they like to hear a hound bawl around on track good for them but i aint going to listen to them when they say your dog has a bad hole in it because he dont bawl on trail even though the dog trees coons and not dens, who are they to decide what a coon dog is or how they should tree coons. and as far a silent dog treeing out of hearing i aint had that happen very few times in all the years ive hunted but i cant tell you how many times my open mouth dogs have treed out of hearing. a silent dog will make the track shorter and a open bawl mouth dog will make it longer. main thing is enjoy your dogs.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-02-2011 04:32 PM:

I think most of the argument on here is becouse some are calling there semi silent dog silent and that is not the question. If they open on trail AT ALL there not silent and aren't breaking any rules.

That and some doesn't understand other peoples hunting conditions. There are all kinds of terrain and weather conditions right here in Oklahoma. I would hate to see the differance all over the country. The same thing with the amount of coon per square mile.
For example it is EXTREAMLY DRY right here but on the easter side of the state it is GREAT hunting. There is allso a lot of fertilizer being put on the feilds and on the other side of the state it is mostly pasture and hills.

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Posted by mleck on 11-02-2011 05:04 PM:

Right now I am hunting a female that does not open much on the ground however I do not consider her silent but close very close. usally when she first opens it is by locateing with a long drawn out bawl she might move 50-200 feet until she settles on a tree.

If you were standing a half mile from her you would think her first bark is on a tree but if you were in a night hunt standing next to her and I treed her on that bark I would get minused as she moved around to track herself into the correct tree.

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Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-02-2011 05:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mleck
Right now I am hunting a female that does not open much on the ground however I do not consider her silent but close very close. usally when she first opens it is by locateing with a long drawn out bawl she might move 50-200 feet until she settles on a tree.

If you were standing a half mile from her you would think her first bark is on a tree but if you were in a night hunt standing next to her and I treed her on that bark I would get minused as she moved around to track herself into the correct tree.

You have to strike her in before you tree her. Just strike her in on the locate and tree her when she settles.

Posted by mleck on 11-02-2011 06:12 PM:

Yes a dog has to be struck in before treed everytime to not be scratched.

Posted by Harley Smith on 11-02-2011 06:16 PM:

good advice okie dawg!

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Posted by l.lyle on 11-02-2011 08:15 PM:

It would not be so bad hunting a silent dog on a cast with open dogs because you could keep up with what is going on while keeping Secret yourself. But WHAT IF you got in on a cast with nothing but silent dogs LOL Nobody would know a dang thing , probably all swear there was no coon on the place LOL. Couldn't wait to call time out to check the Garmins to see what was headed to a road. LOL That would be a fiasco of a hunt. So yes, from that standpoint a silent dog is getting a free ride riding off the back of the good dogs.

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-02-2011 08:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by l.lyle
It would not be so bad hunting a silent dog on a cast with open dogs because you could keep up with what is going on while keeping Secret yourself. But WHAT IF you got in on a cast with nothing but silent dogs LOL Nobody would know a dang thing , probably all swear there was no coon on the place LOL. Couldn't wait to call time out to check the Garmins to see what was headed to a road. LOL That would be a fiasco of a hunt. So yes, from that standpoint a silent dog is getting a free ride riding off the back of the good dogs.

NOPE! NOPE! in that case he is getting a free ride down I-35 in the front grill of a Mac truck. LOL

Posted by mleck on 11-02-2011 08:53 PM:

A cast of all mainly silent dogs would be treeing coons every 300 years or less when you turn them off instead of babbling stirring everything in the timber up and having to track one for 3/4 mile.

Not sure about most but talking for a few I know of there would be no piggy backing going on jjst bcause they aint barking, your dogs are trailing and opening at the won they got up and running and the ol coon just got limbered up you will be chasing him a while. the one not saying much getting over there to them self is treeing coon after coon just barking every so often on the ground.

I will agree when things are silent on a night hunt as a handler it makes you worry about where your dog is.

Posted by wayne on 11-02-2011 11:01 PM:

most semi silent hounds are deadly accurate so how can you compare them with babbling idiots i prefer an open hound however have seen very few truly silent hounds in the hunts or even pleasure hunting if i had to pick i like open hounds but a semi silent hound sure beats a slick treeing babbler

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 11-02-2011 11:17 PM:

lyle,
we can go drop for drop and i promise you my dog will not be on a tree your dog is on. yes he is very tight. semi silent to silent. treed 3 singles last night and the hounds got under a big den. i don't normally do this but, for you to say that a silent dog rides the back of a open hound.......you have lost your mind. i don't care how long you been doing it or how many dogs you have had. i got a dog at the house right now that will more than likely make you doubt anything you have ever fed.

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Posted by Caleb Wilson on 11-02-2011 11:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
lyle,
we can go drop for drop and i promise you my dog will not be on a tree your dog is on. yes he is very tight. semi silent to silent. treed 3 singles last night and the hounds got under a big den. i don't normally do this but, for you to say that a silent dog rides the back of a open hound.......you have lost your mind. i don't care how long you been doing it or how many dogs you have had. i got a dog at the house right now that will more than likely make you doubt anything you have ever fed.

. I agree totally if anythin the open dogs ride the back of the silent dogs most silent dogs will be in there hooked before the open dog has lined out the track

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Posted by patches9452 on 11-02-2011 11:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
well if silent dogs are so great you would think they would win more world hunts than others... and they might for all i know... anyone know of a stone silent dog winning ukcs world hunt... not tight im talking silent

all these post since and still no one can answer

Posted by greg stull on 11-02-2011 11:53 PM:

IT'S A PISSING MATCH NOW. WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT?

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Posted by patches9452 on 11-03-2011 12:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by greg stull
IT'S A PISSING MATCH NOW. WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT?

if your talking to me greg i was just wondering what silent dog if any had ever won ukc world hunt...

Posted by Okie Dawg on 11-03-2011 01:22 AM:

I think it is funny that people think one is better than the other just because one opens and one doesn't.

Posted by amazingcursouth on 11-03-2011 03:39 AM:

aint no one said one is better, but if someone thinks tht silent dogs ride GOOD dogs. think again.

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Posted by l.lyle on 11-03-2011 09:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
lyle,
we can go drop for drop and i promise you my dog will not be on a tree your dog is on. yes he is very tight. semi silent to silent. treed 3 singles last night and the hounds got under a big den. i don't normally do this but, for you to say that a silent dog rides the back of a open hound.......you have lost your mind. i don't care how long you been doing it or how many dogs you have had. i got a dog at the house right now that will more than likely make you doubt anything you have ever fed.

No, I have not lost mymind yet. I cannot stand a dog to stand around and not hunt. I cannot stand a dog that does not keep me informed of his progress. I cannot stand a dog that will NOT get in there and take a track from a boo hooer and beat the living H out of him to a tree. I cannot stand a dog that shuts up and sneakes off from his competition and hopes to go far enough fast enough to see one and chase it up a tree. I cannot stand a dog that drop for drop will never be on a tree with my dog or your dog if your dog can beat mine getting there with his mouth shut up or wide ass open makes no difference. You are is Geodgia, I am im SC . If your dog is going to go his way and we never get to hear a race side by side and drop for drop, we might as well stand still and have acomp hunt over the cell phone Let yours do his little thing down there while mine doing his little thing up here. I , In addition to telling the world what I "Cannot Stand" about a dog will say i love a dog that can honor a legitmate strike dog or an illiegitimate strikedog, being that if it is babbling Mine will check but won't honor by SAYING a word , Same as if a dog was trashing. Mine will honor and check butr won't say a word. Maybe being Silent about it all , That is a good Silent. To not join in with a no account type of dog but whatr ever it tells me alot more than people want to boast a no account dog about.

By the way , I killed 8 coons tonight . I carried my layup artist and some young dogs. My layup dog made 8 trees, I could not find a coon in one red oak. All were within 100 yards of the truck exceppt for the two tracks that thank Gawd turned into good races . I don't give a tinkers dam for killing a bunch of coons. I dont mind if a dog throws his head up and winds a coon close by but a trifling dog to take off and never say a word till it falls treed way out yonder SUCKS. My laayup protoge got on two tracks though and opened right on them and a young dog got in on it. A trainer is what i say and a Check Dog to boot, What more can a man ask of a dog?

Posted by Timmy Templeton on 11-03-2011 10:14 AM:

Love a sneak-around treedog. Catch coons quick with em'.

Posted by l.lyle on 11-03-2011 10:16 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Old Dominion
Love a sneak-around treedog. Catch coons quick with em'.

LOL I reckon I would have killed 16 instead of 8.

Posted by Lakeland Kennel on 11-03-2011 12:50 PM:

"In fact I don't recall ever being in a hunt where a silent dog miraculously got treed way ahead or behind open trailing hounds!"

All I can say is that you may not have been with a good silent trailer.

I have an old English female a buddy of mine helped me train. In my opinion, she is as good as they get. The first winter I hunted my Mt Cur Scout (silent), Scout had to tree about 5 coon ahead of Penny before my hunting buddy would believe it. Did Scout always tree ahead of Penny, heck no, Penny is a tough hound. But on some nights, in some places, Scout treed coon ahead of Penny.

I have places where if I hunt open dogs, the coon will always be in the ground, in a brush pile or up a den tree. The coon head for these places the minute a dog opens. But, I can sneak in with one of my silent trailing Curs and they will have a big coon on the outside, often up a bush.

Would I give up my open trailing hounds to go to Curs only, heck no.

David, you guys videoed some of Amy's half Curs. I am sure they didn't open much. And those Cur squirrel dogs you guys taped didn't open. Get you a good Cur and start enjoying some of the fun.

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Posted by amazingcursouth on 11-03-2011 01:10 PM:

good post lakeland.

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