UKC Forums - Coffee Shop Philosophy

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 11-12-2013 07:03 PM:

I heard back from the DNR, they are still going to talk to the town, but for now it's their law and enforceable across the entire township. The DNR officer recommended that I contact all my fellow hunters and landowner and get them to also contact the Oconomowoc town board. If you live in the area and are inclinded to do so, you can reach the town at 920-474-4449.

As for me... I have made up a dozen flyers for the local post offices and gas stations, as well as just having sent a letter to the editor. I also have a call into a couple big farms, who will be very upset if we can't shoot their deer and coon!

As Joe would say... I'm once again, out making friends and influencing people!?!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by ric on 11-12-2013 11:42 PM:

by the way

My grandfather shot coon with a .410 all the time because he couldn't see the iron sites and a scope was too high tech for him. Never had a problem with the fur buyers, but it probably isn't the most pup friendly way to hunt.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 11-13-2013 06:55 PM:

Talk about coincidences... the land where I was "busted" is owned by a town board member, and happens to be one fo the farmers who has specifically asked me to remove any and all coon!

We spoke yesterday, and I will be on the agenda for the next board meeting!

Stay tuned...

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by Jackson87 on 11-13-2013 10:47 PM:

Atleast you will have one person there on your side.It seems like every good peice of hunting property that I find has some sort of roadblock like this.Best place I got to deer hunt neighboring landowner has called the game warden and police on me multiple times. He's dove up and down the road honking his horn,and even threw big rocks in the creek trying to scare off deer.We kill nice bucks and plenty of does there every year and it really pisses him off.LOL.After about 5 years with no success in running us off he put his land for sale,packed up an moved.Sounds like you have a hunting spot worth fighting for.Goodluck.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 11-14-2013 02:06 AM:

Oh man... within the township limits, I have 6 different sections that are all packed with coon! If I don't get this addressed, I'm going to have to start all over again!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by deschmidt27 on 11-16-2013 03:31 PM:

I've now discussed this with the local DNR, the Chairman of the town board, one of the board members who owns a farm, and the Chief of Police...

The chief assured me that the ordinance, although recently published, has been around for a couple decades, and in his opinion is over-reaching. He is in discussions with the board, and believe they can rectify the shotgun allowance, rifled barrel or not, as well as the .22 use for varmint hunting. I'm supposed to get back in touch with him, in a week.

SO... this is likely good news, but only because I dug into it! If you have similar issues or concerns in your township, I urge you to take an active role in getting it corrected.

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by ric on 11-19-2013 10:40 PM:

GOOD NEWS

Hope it all works out.

Posted by Jackson87 on 12-06-2013 12:12 AM:

Btt.Is there anybody else that can't stand a dog barkin at feed time?It really gets on my nerves.Dog is well feed and hunted regularly. Also why do dogs roll in gut piles and stankin crap.That really drives me nuts!!
Dave I hope your city limits hunting rules is getting worked out.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-06-2013 12:44 AM:

I too am frustrated by a dog that barks in the kennel for any reason. So... short of a breeze coming from the creek, where they could be winding a coon, they get firmly disciplined for any other barking!

I don't understand the infatuation with stinking like rotten guts, but I too have that problem this time of year.

As far as the city ordinances are concerned, they're under review and are supposed to be addressed. In the mean time, I've been given clearance by the local police chief, to continue my coon hunting with my .22 rifle, so I"m taken care of!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by Jackson87 on 12-06-2013 01:16 AM:

Good deal Dave.Figured with all this snow moving in its time for some coffee shop discussion.Did you get a buck yet?

Posted by ric on 12-06-2013 01:54 AM:

barking

I figure feeding time is the one acceptable time for dogs to bark. If it had been 24 hours since you last ate, you'd probably be pretty excited about hearing the dog food stirring too. For many people it is the one time of day they interact with their dogs during the day. Why waste it hollering at them? I usually let them bark, pet them on the head and tell them how great they are. After that, they stick their heads in the food pan, and it is quiet time again as far as I am concerned.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-06-2013 03:43 AM:

No buck yet... I've decided to stay out of the woods, up here, until all the orange hats breathing down my neck, disappear.

I don't really holler at mine much, because they've learned it's unacceptable. If someone shows up at the house, and they think it's time to go hunting, they may sound off a bit, but it's not a regular occurrence. In my experience it doesn't take much, with a little help from TriTronics!

At my old house, I had a buddy over one day to do some rabbit hunting with his beagles. They repeatedly ran rabbits right by the kennels, and he was amazed that they didn't bark. Of course, when I was deer hunting within ear-shot of his place, it would appear that his dogs never shut-up. So I can see how he was so shocked!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by Jackson87 on 12-10-2013 12:41 AM:

I know we've discussed deer hunting on here before so here goes.Are the deer killed on the hunting channel pin raised??They can have a 160" as there first deer on the feild.Then it will walk right toward there ground blind and give them a 20 yard bow shot.Seems kinda staged.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-10-2013 01:23 AM:

I wouldn't say it's "staged", at least not for the majority of the shows, but that's not to say it's an exact representation of real life. Having co-produced a national television show, let me give you a sneak-peak behind the scenes...

One, a hunt takes hours if not days to film, especially a deer hunt. But a half hour show, only has about 20 minutes of hunting shown, once you take time out for commercial breaks, credits, etc. SO... you have to cut out a lot of content, to whittle the hunt down to 20 minutes. And therefore you remove the stuff not television worthy. Like... hours of absolutely nothing happening, missed shots (not Joe though, he showed all my missed shots!) and basically complete boredom! And it's not live television, so if you go on a 5 day hunt, and don't get a monster buck, then leave that footage in the can! Budget permitting, just go on another hunt, and air that one.

Two, some producers take creative liberties! Not necessarily fabricating anything untrue, but that doesn't mean it has to happen in chronological order. For example... do you really think those guys are talking you through the shot, when the buck is really out in front of them??? No, of course not. Who would run the risk of spooking that swamp donkey! BUT once the shot is complete, and they're waiting to get down and look for it, they have time to re-film the "shot" and talk all they want. So you marry the buck footage, with the after-the-fact, shot footage and you've got something television worthy!

So what you're left with is a half hour show (actually around 20 minutes) of whatever they wanted to show you, not what happened, real-time.

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by Jackson87 on 12-10-2013 01:58 AM:

Good info Dave.You know what I mean.Ive deer hunted for bout 15 years and ant many mature bucks strolling around lookin for some sugar beet powder in my neck of the wood.Im sure they put in a lot of time in to get that one perfect hunt to air .Sometimes on tv they will say we've hunted 12 days straight and ant been able to get it done.Then I'm like man that's some real huntin. By the way watching you miss all those big Indiana coons was entertaining.LOL.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-10-2013 11:01 PM:

Sometimes you don't miss, but they won't fall out... I filmed Joe making multiple shots, as well, but somehow those all got edited out!?! Again... the magic of editing!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by deschmidt27 on 02-25-2014 07:31 PM:

Training Pens

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Ok... it's been awhile, so I'll crank it up!

Please don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good and even great trainers out there. Heck I even offered this service, back in the day, before I discovered girls! But what I'm about to question, is more of the training methodology.

There seems to be a fad developing, where folks are building "starting pens" and offering a training service. And I think the controlled environment aspect, is a good idea. But I wonder if turining a pup loose in a "coon zoo" is the right approach for the pup's development.

I've seen some pups come out if this training, that simply run through the woods, checking trees, as they've been taught that there's "one here somewhere!".

And there's also the question of whether this is even needed for dog that was bred to tree. They don't need to be taught to tree, that should come naturally, what they need to be taught is everything else that goes on in the woods, and on that track.

Again... I'm not blasting all trainers or even all "pens" I'm just wondering if others agree with their use and application???

Thanks!

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by ole hoss on 02-25-2014 07:55 PM:

I agree with you. A pup that learns to tree wild coons in my opinion is better off than the one that has had 1000 coons in a acer pen. Just like i think a pup started in low coon population is better than the high coon areas. To a extint. Like you i beleive the tree is bred in them and their gonna tree reguardless but its the track these young dogs have trouble with. You have to track before you tree.

__________________
jason

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-26-2014 01:32 AM:

Re: Training Pens

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Ok... it's been awhile, so I'll crank it up!

Please don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good and even great trainers out there. Heck I even offered this service, back in the day, before I discovered girls! But what I'm about to question, is more of the training methodology.

There seems to be a fad developing, where folks are building "starting pens" and offering a training service. And I think the controlled environment aspect, is a good idea. But I wonder if turining a pup loose in a "coon zoo" is the right approach for the pup's development.

I've seen some pups come out if this training, that simply run through the woods, checking trees, as they've been taught that there's "one here somewhere!".

And there's also the question of whether this is even needed for dog that was bred to tree. They don't need to be taught to tree, that should come naturally, what they need to be taught is everything else that goes on in the woods, and on that track.

Again... I'm not blasting all trainers or even all "pens" I'm just wondering if others agree with their use and application???

Thanks!

Dave....

As usual I think we are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue....at least in part.

The problem is that you are making an assumption that may or may not be true. I'm not in favor of shoving a pup in an enclosure with a bunch of other pups to run loose learning every habit in the book from other pups or young dogs with little or no trainer interactions.....But not all starting facilites are wired that way.

I've told you before, that I am the world's worst puppy starter. I just don't like it....don't have the patience for it...so I find someone else to do it.

You and I have pups that are about the same age. I sent mine to a puppy pen. You have been hauling yours with your older dogs. Mine has treed DOZENS of coon. She started out with caged coon...lighting the fire, and has graduated to free casting at night. Now granted, it is February in one of the most brutal winters we have had in YEARS...and I'm not saying she gets treed with a coon every time you turn her out....but she is going hunting well, and when she is out SHE IS LOOKING FOR A COON AND LOOKING TO GE TREED. When she trees, she is there for the duration.

She has had a bunch of coon released for her early on, most she treed, some she didn't....but there were no enclosures...this was at night, in the wild. The idea was that she was in a position to be successful. And I think that this method gives pups a true head start in the right direction.

I have had pups that were simply "hunted with the old dog". Some started quickly, but none have progressed at the pace that the past few pups that I've sent off to be started have.

Dogs are only capable of learning by one means...repetition. If you are huntig your pup with the old dog for two months a couple of times a week, and there is no real structure....if they simply "show up" with the old dog and don't know why they are there....yet a coon falls out of the sky...what are they repeating...and what are they learning?

So to me.....it is like most everything else in life. There is a right way, and a wrong way to do most everything. Shoving a group of pups in a six acre pen with some trees and a couple of coon is probably a recipie for disaster.....but puppy kindergarten, where they are focused every day, several times a day, and then at night every night, several times a night on doing what we want them to do.....to me, that is the right way.

Also, I agree with not teaching them to tree...but I do believe in teaching them to track TO THE RIGHT TREE, locate the coon by scent, and then stay treed....Rinse and repeat....do this several times a day leaving them wanting for more....free cast them at night and they will still have to learn to go find a track, but once they find the track....the rest they already have in hand....

The pups I'm getting back from "my guy" don't have to be hunted with an older dog....you simply free cast them and wait for them to get struck....

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by deschmidt27 on 02-26-2014 02:49 AM:

I don't know Joe... I think we're on at least a similar "page". What you describe is probably not what many of these "starting pens" are like. And you and I have both witnessed dogs, coming back from pens, that when they're free cast, run into the woods going from tree to tree, looking for that coon or cage. I remember a frustrating night in Monterey, that was just like that, but from a different "guy" I believe. And last fall I saw another one in a hunt, where a guy was seemingly confused by how the dog was acting, when he just got back from a "tune-up" at the local pen!

With regards to our pups of similar age, it's not an apples to apples comparison with regards to training approach! My pup has two sisters receiving similar training to mine, that have been treeing coon for quite some time. Mine has been "silent" treeing them, until a light switch finally clicked a few nights ago. However, he's been free-cast, just as yours and has ran and treed two coon by himself, and he did bark hard on tree, both times, but I'm quite certain he saw them go up. Again, that issue has been remedied as of late. On one of those, I found him about a quarter mile deep, so he too is not afraid to go hunting. And from the very beginning, I believe his second night out, he's been running and opening on long, tough tracks with the older dogs, and I'm quite certain learning from those experiences. As well as the other dozen tracks he was a part of, but just didn't quite put it all together at the tree.

Prior to him, and within the past few years, I've started four dogs this same way, and all of them, up until this recent "late bloomer" were running and treeing with the old dog, on the third or fourth night, and then were immediately hunted by themselves. Where, like your dog, they excelled by themselves. And prior to them, and much farther in the past, I started probably 30-40 dogs this same way!

But the point was not whether a "pup starter" or trainer was appropriate for those with less patience or time to do it themselves, it was whether some of these "coon zoos" are good for the pup's development. Or whether learning to go out and find a track, and make a tree without ever seeing it, is a more necessary and "life-like" approach. Granted one or two live coon seen, to spark that interest and see what they're chasing, is often necessary, but more than that and you run the risk of teaching them either to tree by site, or assume there's a coon in every tree.

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Posted by ole hoss on 02-26-2014 02:55 AM:

I havent ever started a pup with a old dog. I might hunt with one once or twice a week at most. I catch a couple coons and when they show intrest in that coon i turn it loose right in front of them. Next time i turn it loose 5 or ten minutes before i bring the pup out the box. Mainly i just take them hunting. Just me and them. Lots of walking but ive been lucky to find a breed thats bred to tree coons. All i have to do is take them and be paitent. They pretty much take off on their own. Ill let a young 6-10 month old pup run what they want till their treeing coons then i break them off the junk. I start mine right out in the wild. Dont have a dog over 10 months old. I like to hunt pups for some reason. My 10 month old pup is split treeing every night i hunt him with friends and he will not back a dog. Thats what i like.

__________________
jason

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-26-2014 03:03 AM:

Old saying....you get what you pay for. Sending a pup to a starting facility is not any different than buying a dog...try before you buy......

Dave, I'd love to be able to say that your success with your pups is inversly proportional to my breeding prowess....but I wont....

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Dustin gay on 02-26-2014 03:11 AM:

i dont know about these starter pens or puppy pens i like to use the turn out coon it seems to work for me getting a young dog started a older gentlemen told me once when i asked him how you get a good coon dog "wear out three or four pair of red wing boots then you got a hound" so i guess we are back where we started you gotta hunt em and i mean really hunt a dog not just take a walk in the woods. I like to hunt em alone older dogs are alright to start with but there are to many "me too" dogs out there. jmo

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Save a coon hunt a walker

Posted by buck brush on 02-26-2014 03:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Old saying....you get what you pay for. Sending a pup to a starting facility is not any different than buying a dog...try before you buy......

Dave, I'd love to be able to say that your success with your pups is inversly proportional to my breeding prowess....but I wont....

Joe how long have you been breeding dogs??

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-26-2014 04:35 AM:

Which time Skip?

Started in hounds 30 years ago, migrated to beagles while my kids were young, then about 15 years ago started back to breeding hounds.

The reason that I said what I did was because Dave's male is out of one of my males, and one of my females. Dave bought him off me as a started pup.....now he is raising pups out of him.

You gotta understand that Dave and I pick at each other nearly daily over the phone......so we have a ribbing contest going most of the time.....

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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