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-- Should silent dogs be scratched? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=456734)

Without adding all the bullcrap and just answering the question...........

Yes , silent dogs should be scratched. BEING SILENT IS AGAINST THE RULES !
Not scratching one would be cheating.

Does the rule need changing? That would be for a different thread.

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Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH MY DOGS GIVING MOUTH ON THE GROUND AND TREEING COON. I THINK THE ARGUMENT COULD GO BOTH WAYS FOR OR AGAINST. I GREW UP IN THE MOUNTAINS AND HAVE HAD OPEN TRAILING DOGS GET OUT OF HEARING AND HAD TO USE THE TRACKER TO FIND THEM. THE POINT OF THIS WHOLE THREAD WAS ABOUT UKC'S RULE ON SILENT DOGS. JUST LIKE WITH BENCH SHOW RULES, DOGS ARE TO FIT A CERTAIN STANDARD. THE HUNTING RULES ARE SET AS A STANDARD FOR THE HOUNDS THAT COMPETE IN THE NITE HUNTS. SIMPLY STATED, IF THEY DON'T MEET THE STANDARD SET BY THE RULES THEY SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE RULES ( +, -, 0, OR SCRATCH ).

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quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
The point of this thread was about our OPINIONS, not the rules. The original post stated that clearly.

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In the hills and hollows you encounter here, a totally SILENT dog would be a almost impossible to keep up with, if one got a couple of deep hollows over and treed it would be tough to hear him if there was much wind at all. It seems some would rather depend on Garmin's to keep up with their dog. I don't see how anyone could get any enjoyment out of hunting a totally silent dog that does nothing but open up on tree.
There is nothing wrong with a tight mouth dog, but a truly silent dog that opens up only at the tree shouldn't be allowed in hound events, just doesn't fit the breed standard. Enjoy him meat hunting yourself, don't try bending the rules to fit your dog. I wouldn't get much pleasure out of having to sit and watch a screen to see what my dog is doing all the time, a garmin dog just doesn't have much of an appeal. Layup's are a totally different deal, had one last week, walking in a dog just fell treed on a big persimmon by an old shed, but the rest of the night he did open on trail and got part of two more coon.

quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
ROFLMAO......not true! Trust me, I know what thin coon is! When a dog has to travel 3/4 of a mile to find a coon on about 50% of the drops, thats pretty thin! It helps to have a dog with the hunt and go power to go until they can find a coon. And on bad nights, it can really get interesting!! On 2 of the 3 trees, he just fell treed on them(thats considered silent) and the closest of the 2 was 0.73 mile away and he sounded like he was only about 400-500 yards away! Here in middle Tennessee, you can be standing on one hill and a dog can be treed on another hill over 1 1/2 miles and can still be heard rather easily. I treed this same dog on a hunt a couple weeks ago while we were standing down in a narrow bottom and he was treed .67mile around the backside of a very big hill!! Ive never had trouble hearing any of my dogs when they decide to just fall treed and I hunt every night!

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i don't think they should because as long as the dog is treed with a coon it clearly knows what its doing..some dogs just don't bark on track but are great at treeing so it don't matter they shouldn't be scratched...

SO...

Spectators can shine, you should be able to hunt off your garmin, I saw that coon after the 10 so plus it up cause he treed it... What other rules should be disregarded as long as the dog has a coon.

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue Hawk
i don't think they should because as long as the dog is treed with a coon it clearly knows what its doing..some dogs just don't bark on track but are great at treeing so it don't matter they shouldn't be scratched...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Blue Hawk
i don't think they should because as long as the dog is treed with a coon it clearly knows what its doing..some dogs just don't bark on track but are great at treeing so it don't matter they shouldn't be scratched...

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LOL if only true hounds bark on track then why are there silent dogs in EVERY bloodline out there????

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What Kind of advantage is being silent...

Take a good open mouth hound and equally good silent mouth hound the open mouth hound should win every time. Most silent mouth hounds get third and fourth strike. Most good open mouth hounds get first and second.
If both get one first tree then the open mouth hound should win every time. The rule says scratch and I agree, but if you can't beat the silent mouth hound then your hound is probably not the best hound that night.

JMO

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quote:

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I would say that a lot of the true silent dogs air scent and that is why they go that far and then just fall treed and have the meat. Your welcome to bring a silent dog out here to the plains and try it out. [/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Dogs yes but we are talking about hounds and to keep the hound class you have to keep hound characteristic's you have to make a hound show it's treits. If you took away some of the rules in conformation standards they could all look like shepards in a few years.
There is more to a hound than just finding game. Any dog can be trained to find game and if that is all you want out of your dog that is your deal. A TRUE HOUNDSMAN wants a HOUND though and there traits are to bawl or chop on trail.

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quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
The point of this thread was about our OPINIONS, not the rules. The original post stated that clearly.

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Brian Teague 252-649-3050

wrong

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Originally posted by mortoncooner
Jmo but I'm like the second poster if it is a registered hound I don't care what he does! A coondog is a coondog! I don't care how you spin it. It's hard to enforce this rule anyway and IMO it will go away one day. Just say it's a bad night and you have a dog that is a layup artist but usually opens on track! He trees 2 layups. By all means let's scratch him! There is no way to enforce this rule without cheating someone

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quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
Bawl or chop? Is it ok if they do both?? Being silent does not keep a dog from being a true hound!

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'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

(procyon lotor) (Canis lupis familiaris) or coon dog aka: coon dawg, is a dog used to locate raccoon. There are many different types of them but the Treeing walker is the most popular because it is extreamly fast and is known for its ability to win in competition There are less popular types who are less popular because they seem to waste alot of time opening on track while the other dogs have already treed the coon. lol

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Harley THAT HURTS!! LOL. Us poor ole coonhunters that can't afford a top notch treeing walker may just have to settle for a lower class breed, maybe such as the 2011 world champion!!

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Rocketman I hear ya. I try too keep one of every color around the house so which ever dogs are winning in the big hunts I can pretend that thats the kind of hound I been huntin for years. I don't own any plots , lepards, or redbones. If they ever start winning I will probably try one of them also. lol

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Rocketman I hear ya. I try too keep one of every color around the house so which ever dogs are winning in the big hunts I can pretend that thats the kind of hound I been huntin for years. I don't own any plots , lepards, or redbones. If they ever start winning I will probably try one of them also. lol

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Re: wrong

quote:

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Originally posted by everett
Im sorry but this is wrong, yes there is a way to enforce the rule without cheating any one, Example 3 weeks ago I hunted my blue female in a hunt a blue male was in the cast also and a boy with a young dog that wouldnt hunt, My dog struck and trailed a coon for 20 minutes by herself she located twice nothing else barking i figured to let her settle in a minute, blue male fell treed with her one bark handler struck and treed him one word after the other, we went and SHE had the coon he got no strike but first tree, two more trees that hunt and this was his style on all three trees, no layups to himself, my dog ran all 3 tracks and he fell in when she treed all 3 times, the judges dog, he should have been scratched, if you want to hunt curs then do so, hounds should open to a degree on ground.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
OK, MY OPINION IS THIS. IF YOU TAKE A DOG TO A UKC HUNT IT SHOULD FIT UKC'S STANDARD. BY STANDARD I MEAN IT SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPLY WITH THE RULES. THE DOG SHOULD BE OPEN ON THE TRACK, NOT SILENT. THE DOG SHOULD NOT BE JUNKY. THE DOG SHOULD NOT BE MEAN. THE DOG SHOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD TREE TILL THE CAST CAN GET TO IT. IT SHOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD THE TRACK AND TREE OPEN FOR THE DESIGNATED TIMES ALLOWED. SIMPLE SET OF THINGS TO GO BY FOR THE DOG AND THE REST OF THE RULES ARE TO KEEP THE HANDLERS STRAIGHT. IF THE DOG CAN DO SIX THINGS IT HAS DONE ITS PART TO SATISFY MEETING THE RULES.

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Man sounds like it would be hard to have a dog good enough to even take to the woods. It seems to me there are not many people hunting now. So if you say a dog has to be perfect to be hunted there will be a lot less dogs for sure.

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Why Open Trailing Would Is Necessary

OK, if we assume that all of these silent dogs are not being turned out, right on top of the coon, then we have to assume that like our open trailing hounds, they have to first go find a track and then work the track out until they tree. Now... many have argued that they will work that track out quicker, not because they have better noses, but because their silence allows them to sneak up on the coon, and put more pressure on them. But it still won't be instantaneous, every time. I'm sure, that just like the open trailing hounds, they will "slam dunk" one every once in awhile, but for the most part they're will be a great deal of silence in the woods while these dogs find and work-out a track, especially if what they find is a cold feeder, track.

Which means, that unless you have a bell on them, or are watching them on a Garmin, you have no idea where they are or what they are up to, right??? At any point in time, they could be looking for a track or working one out, and since they don't open you can't be certain which they are doing.

So I take back what I said before, about a dog opening only on tree as being like only watching the touchdowns in a football game. It's really more like watching a football game, but only during the scores and turning the TV off and staring at a blank screen in silence, between the touchdowns!!!

You guys that say only treeing the coon matters, can't all being turn loose in "coon zoos" which means you must spend a lot of time staring at the dark, in silence, right? Even with all the fun you're having treeing more coon than us with open-trailing hounds, do you really enjoy standing around wondering where your dog is, and what they're doing?!?

Now... let's take these silent dogs to my neck of the woods, in January when there's a foot of snow on the ground and the only coon that are moving are the rutting boars looking for sows, and some of those tracks go a quarter mile from one woods to another, or even longer. These silent dogs may be running a track, but they're not telling you where they are or where they're headed. And so you must rely on technology, like a Garmin, to prevent losing your dogs. And it's no wonder our fore-fathers required coon hounds, who weren't just chasing squirrels in front of you, to open on track. Otherwise they would have lost a lot of coon dogs out in the cold.

And I'm sure some of you might say, "well, I wouldn't hunt in a foot of snow!" And you may say that, but then, who has the coon dog, now!

David Schmidt

i have come to this point who gives a flying rip. if you like hunting what you are hunting HUNT it. there are way more pleasure hunters than comp hunters anyways. After nearly 27 yrs of coon hunting and 18 of that was comp hunting, i have gotten to the place where i just love to hunt. I want to tree as many coon as i can in as little time possible. If it take me hunting my SEMI SILENT dogs then so be it. I don't need to brag or compare terrian. I have set my dog down all over and he has been able to show me coon. I do prefer less mouth on track. And i have owned hounds that opened a bunch and some that didn't. I have hunted curs that open often and some that did not. fact is who cares. just keep hunting, keep working to make your dogs better. Breed for what you like because your the one hunting them. if it meas crossing them up, do it. bottom line..at the end of the night you and the ones you are with will remember how many coons you seen and who treed them. NOT the one that opened the most on track.

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David, have you ever hunted silent dogs? It appears to me you haven't. You don't need a Garman or a tracker with them, most tree fairly close. Instead of a late coon going into a hole in the ground, a brush pile, or den tree, a silent dog will bush them. You can get a number of big coon with silent dogs you would never get with open trailers.

In a competition context, silent trailers that hunt deep usually get plus points by themselves while the open trailers are getting dens. Silent dogs often don't draw the rest of the pack to them. In a PKC rules format, by the time the rest of the pack can get to them, they only get a few points for covering. Silent dogs usually have the meat on the outside, sometimes up bushes where they are plus points while open dogs coons will be up huge trees where they can't be found.

I don't favor silent dogs over open dogs but here in Illinois, I have places where I can hunt a silent Cur and get a coon while if I brought open hounds in, the neighbors would have a fit. I am disabled and the silent dogs often tree close to the truck where an open dog would have scared the coon into running a mile away.

I think folks should hunt with silent dogs before passing judgement on them. I know in the English breed, there are a ton of silent dogs in the Hall of Fame, on the Reproducer's Lists, and that have made Grand Nite Champions. I don't use these dogs in my English breeding program, the breed standards call for open dogs, but the silent dogs are there and being used by lots of folks.

Why have a rule that is not enforced?

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