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-- Should silent dogs be scratched? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=456734)

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Originally posted by Harley Smith
so now they cant even chop on track

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UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

I think my dog wispers so low you cant hear her till she gets to the tree. lol then she turns the volume up

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pr' Dixie's Heaven on Earth
(Turpins Insane Cain X Jacksons Magic Dixie) (walker)

Re: Silent

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Originally posted by Barry Franklin
Rules. It's not about what you say or think, It's about what can you get by with. At the top of every UKC scorecard I have ever looked at it says " Honor Rules" So If you go to a hunt and enter a silent Dog, you are trying to bend the Rules. By the way, the Breed Rep's. make up the rules. In the beginning open trailing was a desired trait, and It still is for Me. If you like silent dogs, fine, just don't expect the rules to be changed or bended for you.

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__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

I just warn them on every tree and toward the end of the hunt I tell them to catch their dog its over for you,be a gentleman,and go by the rules.don't lose your cool.I like strick rules'not near as much trouble comes out at the end results.

the original post asks for our opinion on the rules.

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pr' Dixie's Heaven on Earth
(Turpins Insane Cain X Jacksons Magic Dixie) (walker)

Yes, the original post asked for an opinion on the rule, and in folks discussing the intent of the rule, it became a debate on whether silent dogs are better coon dogs and if that justified them being allowed to "get by".

There's arguments both ways, with regards to being silent and sneaking up on the coon, and other's like me that think the spirit of the hunt includes listening to the dogs work a track. Both arguments have merit, depending on your perspective.

But either way you look at it, the rule is what it is and should be followed, and whether you think a silent dog is a better coon dog or not, the rule should be adhered to. You can't just start making decisions on what rules should be followed and what ones can be bent, based on what you think is right or meaningful. And if you think that's really OK, you need to take a hard look at whether you're being an honest, honorable competitor.

For example... I was in a hunt this last Summer and my dog treed in the middle of a bayou. He was swimming around the tree and you can actually see the wet coon prints on the bark, where it climbed up and into a hole. Now... we were all convinced that the coon was in there, but we didn't plus it up, simply becasue that's what we thought was right. We followed the rules, and the spirit of the rules. No debate...

David Schmidt

good job david

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
Yes, the original post asked for an opinion on the rule, and in folks discussing the intent of the rule, it became a debate on whether silent dogs are better coon dogs and if that justified them being allowed to "get by".

There's arguments both ways, with regards to being silent and sneaking up on the coon, and other's like me that think the spirit of the hunt includes listening to the dogs work a track. Both arguments have merit, depending on your perspective.

But either way you look at it, the rule is what it is and should be followed, and whether you think a silent dog is a better coon dog or not, the rule should be adhered to. You can't just start making decisions on what rules should be followed and what ones can be bent, based on what you think is right or meaningful. And if you think that's really OK, you need to take a hard look at whether you're being an honest, honorable competitor.

For example... I was in a hunt this last Summer and my dog treed in the middle of a bayou. He was swimming around the tree and you can actually see the wet coon prints on the bark, where it climbed up and into a hole. Now... we were all convinced that the coon was in there, but we didn't plus it up, simply becasue that's what we thought was right. We followed the rules, and the spirit of the rules. No debate...

David Schmidt

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__________________
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

David, I admire you for your personal honesty and integrity but the truth is that the silent rule is almost never enforced, there are plenty of silent Grand Nite Champions, there are plenty of silent dogs on some of UKC's reproducers lists, and there will always be silent dogs that win UKC Nite Hunts. That is just the way it is. The silent rule is an obsolete rule that is almost never enforced. It needs to be deleted from the rule book. It serves no purpose.

I like my hounds to be open but I also hunt Curs that are stone silent. I can use them in places I would have trouble if I hunted hounds in the same area. I should be able to compete with my Curs against hounds in competition. What are the hound guys afraid of? Lots of hounds are silent these days.

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Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
David, I admire you for your personal honesty and integrity but the truth is that the silent rule is almost never enforced, there are plenty of silent Grand Nite Champions, there are plenty of silent dogs on some of UKC's reproducers lists, and there will always be silent dogs that win UKC Nite Hunts. That is just the way it is. The silent rule is an obsolete rule that is almost never enforced. It needs to be deleted from the rule book. It serves no purpose.

I like my hounds to be open but I also hunt Curs that are stone silent. I can use them in places I would have trouble if I hunted hounds in the same area. I should be able to compete with my Curs against hounds in competition. What are the hound guys afraid of? Lots of hounds are silent these days.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
David, I admire you for your personal honesty and integrity but the truth is that the silent rule is almost never enforced, there are plenty of silent Grand Nite Champions, there are plenty of silent dogs on some of UKC's reproducers lists, and there will always be silent dogs that win UKC Nite Hunts. That is just the way it is. The silent rule is an obsolete rule that is almost never enforced. It needs to be deleted from the rule book. It serves no purpose.

I like my hounds to be open but I also hunt Curs that are stone silent. I can use them in places I would have trouble if I hunted hounds in the same area. I should be able to compete with my Curs against hounds in competition. What are the hound guys afraid of? Lots of hounds are silent these days.

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Originally posted by patches9452
i wouldnt have aproblem with people hunting silent dogs if thats the wat they were treated.... tree points only but to cheat and get strike points to wouldnt be fair to the dogs that do strike... how can you be honest and get strike points on a dog that never strikes

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__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
Theres 2 things we need to remember here patches. 1. Striking a track and opening on a track are 2 different things. If you hunt enough with a tight or silent dog with a Garmin, you'll realize when those dogs get struck, the yardage they cover in that 5 second time period gets greater. Hunt one with an open trailer and watch your Garmin and you'll see what I mean. When the open trailer starts opening on a track and the silent dog is with him, watch the distance he covers in that 5 second time it takes the Garmin to update. 2. Striking a dog that just falls treed is not cheating at all. Remember, the UKC rules force us to strike that dog. After the minute, they must be called struck on or before the 3rd bark. And you must strike your dog before you can call him treed. Its not cheating when its following the rules.

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quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
if hes not opening on the ground because he is a true silent track dog... its cheating according to ukcs rule.... i have dogs that will just fall treed also but they are not true silent track dogs

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__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
No its not! Lets say 1st drop on a hunt, the minutes up, a dog falls treed 500 yards strait ahead. The handler of that dog says, strike ole joe, tree ole joe. Did he cheat? No! Why not? Because UKC RULES says 1. He must STRIKE his dog on or before the 3rd bark or he will be "awarded strike points and minused"! Now since UKC awards that dog strike points, is UKC cheating?? 2. A dog MUST be called struck before it can be called treed! UKC RULES forces the handler to strike the dog, so theres no way it can be considered cheating!! Now the rules also say if a dog is CONTINUOUSLY silent, he is to be scratched. But striking a dog that barks before you tree that dog can in no way whatsoever be cheating when the RULES force you to do so! Not my opinion, but the facts according to the UKC RULEBOOK!

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__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
The rules were made when people new the differance between a track bawl (or chop) and a tree bark (or chop). Some times they will see one go up or wind one straight to a tree and not open on ground BUT if they do that all night it is time to scratch for being silent.

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__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
No its not! Lets say 1st drop on a hunt, the minutes up, a dog falls treed 500 yards strait ahead. The handler of that dog says, strike ole joe, tree ole joe. Did he cheat? No! Why not? Because UKC RULES says 1. He must STRIKE his dog on or before the 3rd bark or he will be "awarded strike points and minused"! Now since UKC awards that dog strike points, is UKC cheating?? 2. A dog MUST be called struck before it can be called treed! UKC RULES forces the handler to strike the dog, so theres no way it can be considered cheating!! Now the rules also say if a dog is CONTINUOUSLY silent, he is to be scratched. But striking a dog that barks before you tree that dog can in no way whatsoever be cheating when the RULES force you to do so! Not my opinion, but the facts according to the UKC RULEBOOK!

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quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
and i have absolutely no problem with that until they do it 3 times in a row without opening on the ground.... i do know what the rules say and have only in 30 yrs of hunting drawn one completely silent track dog.... but i still say if they are completely silent either dont hunt them or be willing to just recieve tree points.... i had a guy try to scratch me at the end of a hunt one time because the only tree made was a layup.... i do not agree with that but if others are opening on 3 tracks in a row and ole silent aint he needs to go

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__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
If you drew a dog one night that treed 3 or 4 singles to himself and was silent, never opening on the ground while yalls 3 dogs never treed a coon, "in your opinion" do you think that dog deserves to be scratched?? Now I said "in your opinion". Not asking what the rules say. I know what they say, just want your honest opinion!

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__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
YEP.......... if it doesn't open in thin coon then you wouldn't be able to find it when it treed. It would be great for a meat dog in thick coon but a lot of pointy eard dogs would be too.

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__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Tonight it finally got cool enough to give my dogs a chance against alligators. I turned loose a Thirteen mont old dog that has not been out of the pen since last march.4he was coming along decent when - put up. - turned out a 4 and half month old with her. They both got out in some marsh. (Hey older pup that I expcted to do domething never opened her stupid mouth. If it had not. Been for the puppy - would not have heard aword for right at three hours. -f it had not been for the tracks layed out on :garmin, or the little pup I would ha e no clue if a gator got her or she had just come out out and hauled buggied. After three hours she came treed. So a silent dog is no better at sneaking up on a coon in the mrsh that there is nothing to tree up on tan any other dog. . The GPS tracks shows to same up and back and round. And round same as last year.I was disappointed thatbsince she did not say a word that she could not catch it on knee high hard marshgrass. *ny body want to make an offer on a straigt 13 month old silent one that just treed her first one and - put it in her mouth tonight?

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Originally posted by gfults
Not true! I got one that's tight mouth and sometimes just falls treed and so far tonight he's made 3 trees with coons in two of em and the third one was a den beech. I'm in middle tennessee where coons are thin and the hollows are deep and aint had a lick of trouble hearing him all night, and never do.

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__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
LOL.........is true. If you treed two your not in thin coon. Tight mouth isn't what we were talking about. We said SILENT dogs. You don't even know what way they went when they left and here a really loud dog you can't hear a mile away if it is in a deep creek with steep banks or barking in a hole.
BUT if they bawled on track you can keep going the way they were going when you last heard them and find them.

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__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

ive had very few still mouth dogs tree out of hearing, they usually dont have to run near as far as a open mouth dog does and when they tree they usually have the meat. a silent dog will make way fewer den trees if there worth their salt, i look at den trees bout like i do empty trees, i never pet my dog on a den cause i dont know what hes treeing. i hunt in the mountains and all ya have to do is walk up a hill and you can hear a dog for a mile or more.

NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH MY DOGS GIVING MOUTH ON THE GROUND AND TREEING COON. I THINK THE ARGUMENT COULD GO BOTH WAYS FOR OR AGAINST. I GREW UP IN THE MOUNTAINS AND HAVE HAD OPEN TRAILING DOGS GET OUT OF HEARING AND HAD TO USE THE TRACKER TO FIND THEM. THE POINT OF THIS WHOLE THREAD WAS ABOUT UKC'S RULE ON SILENT DOGS. JUST LIKE WITH BENCH SHOW RULES, DOGS ARE TO FIT A CERTAIN STANDARD. THE HUNTING RULES ARE SET AS A STANDARD FOR THE HOUNDS THAT COMPETE IN THE NITE HUNTS. SIMPLY STATED, IF THEY DON'T MEET THE STANDARD SET BY THE RULES THEY SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ACCORDING TO THE RULES ( +, -, 0, OR SCRATCH ).

__________________
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050