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-- Coffee Shop Philosophy (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=446289)

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I've often wondered that myself... but I think one perspective is that a $200-400 stud fee, may provide for 4-12 (give or take) $200-400 puppies. Assuming you can sell them of course! So if you can afford the stud fee, for the "flavor of the year" you can make some money off the litter.

But then of course, everyone and there brother wants you to spend even more money on that pup that they don't want to pay more that $200 for. They want you to wean it, worm it, vaccinate it, performance pay it, and then of course there's Super Stakes! And by the way, can you drive it to them??? So once your all said and done, you give a man a pup, and wrap a couple hundred dollar bills around it!

The problem is that coon hunting is a poor man's sport, but everyone of them, wants to get rich off of it. One man once summed it up for me, when I was looking for sponsors for the show... he said, you guys shop at Dan's and the bird hunters shop at L.L. Bean!

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Yep you said it all.Now adays a man has to wrap up 800 to 1000 bucks in a litter.Even if you buy a 8 week old pup for 300.Then you pay it up in performance and SS,take it to the vet get all it vaccinations,heart worm preventive and frontline.Now your in 700 to 800 deep on a pup!In today's economy it's hard to accept all these on going bills.I don't ever expect to make money in this sport but hate goin broke tryin to enjoy it.

Yep, it's a huge investment before you ever tree the first coon. But, you can make $10 off of it! LOL

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

True True.Figured this would be a good coffee shop discussion.

Not sure what all the whining is about..... I saw a litter of "Labradoodles" You know Labrador Retriever X Poodle crosses, what we used to call a mutt, advertised for $800.00 a pop at 8 weeks old....heck, you cant even register them!

The bottom line is that nobody is getting rich raising hound pups and selling them for half that price!

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

I heard they were "hypoallergenic"... or at least that was what my cousin told me, when his wife made him buy one!

I said, "you mean they don't have any hair?" Or do you mean their skin never dries and flakes off!?!

I think the lesson learned is that coon hunters, surprisingly, aren't the best liars out there! We need to do a better job of marketing...

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Ok Joe I'll suck it up.lol.

I will nibble a little here just for giggles.

I'm in the throes of raising a litter right now. The very first "outcross" that I've raised at my place for at least 10 years.

I have about $1500.00 invested in the female. I sold her as a young started dog, then bought her back several years later. Had to travel to North Carolina to get her back...so all of those expenses added in. I got her specifically to breed, so I feel that it's fair to include that cost.

Now I vet, feed, and provide for her until she comes in season, lets throw in another 100.00 on top of the 1500. Total of $1600.00 up to this point.

I pay a stud fee of $350.00 when she comes in season, and lose a day's work traveling to get her bred. Let's just make it a $500.00 investment for the sake of easy math.

I'm now up to $2100.00 invested. 63 days go by and she is in labor, but no pups are born. Again, I take a half day off work and take her to the vet to find out that she needs a C-section....that one cost me $600.00, now I'm up to $2700.00 for this litter on the day that they are born.

There are 10 pups born, but I quickly lose three of them, and are left with 7 pups by day 2 of their life. I've not fed them one kernel of feed, not wormed them one time, no vaccinations, no registrations, no Super Stakes, no Performance program nomination and I'm into these little black and white wonders for $385 and change a whack.

I pay for worming, vaccine, and puppy feed at $40.00 a bag for 12 weeks. Just for easy math again, I have another $325 in the litter, and I'm now up to $432.00 per pup.

Now I pay to have the litter registered in UKC, along with the performance program (I'm nominating the entire litter so I can protect my investment), another $170.00. And we are up to $456.00 per pup. They are also PKC Super Stake pups, because everyone thinks they need to be, and nobody goes to the Super Stakes so I add another $49.00 for the litter registration and another $175.00 to pay them all in the super stakes, total of $224.00 to PKC, or roughly $74.00 per pup.

Add that to the $$$ that I've already invested, and I have $488.00 per pup invested.

Alright, some of you will say that I still have the female. And yes I do, however the left horn of her uterus is gone after the C-section...had to have an argument with the vet to NOT spay her....so her value is diminished. She can still have pups, but she won't be "as fertile" as she was. No more 10 pup litters...likely 4 or 5 pups per litter is all I will get. So let's add BACK half of the value of the female....0r $750.00 to be fair.

So I have roughly $3,416.00 invested, and I take back $750.00 of that, leaving me with $2,666.00 in this litter of 7 pups. I have $380.00 PER PUP invested.

Because I paid them up already in all of the programs, I MIGHT be able to swing $400.00 per pup on the ones that I sell. And someone will mutter under their breath that no coonhound pup is worth that much.....probably the same guy that will insist on them being in every stud program known to man!

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Absolutely, Joe!

My last litter, cost me a $30 bag of puppy food, each week! I owned the stud, so no fee, except I had to pay the late fee of $300 to pay up his performance, so I would have the later pleasure of paying for the litter nomination. Now granted, this program will hopefully give me a return on that investment, but not if each buyer doesn't want to pay the value of the puppy, due to the cost you have in them! And you're right, if you don't spend all that money, they won't even consider buying them, at any price!

Now, someone will get on here and either respond or mutter to themselves... "well if you think you're going to make money at this, you're a fool!" But that's not the point being made!

The point is, I beleive (you and Jackson correct me if I'm wrong) that we shouldn't have to make an investment in someone else's hobby! But when someone is unwilling to at least cover the cost of the pup, they're basically asking for a donation, right?!?

OK, now I'll get up on my soap box, as I know you guys will expect nothing less! This is because of the nature of our current society, in our Walmart and eBay era.

Let me explain... people used to be willing to pay for quality! And people used to not expect a hand-out. Nowadays, everyone wants everything dirt cheap, if not free. They want their retirement fund to sky-rocket, but will condemn the company's who's stock they hold, for cutting costs and trying to be more profitable to improve that stock price. They want to be paid top dollar, so they can afford that new, bigger, flat screen or pick-up truck, but then they complain when the truck manufacturer off-shores their production, for cheaper labor, so that their truck will be more affordable!

There's no simple solution or right answer, but people need to start realizing they can't have it both ways! They can't work for an auto manufacturer (for example) with a huge salary, and also produce an affordable automobile! You can't want cheap jeans, from Walmart, and also complain that those jeans came from China... that's why they were cheap!

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Wow Joe!!You make me feel pretty good bout loosen money on my $1000 litter.Only thing that makes me feel like it was worth it is I bred what I like.Also no matter how bad or good these pups turn out they will still operate in the style I like.Thats my hope anyway.....Glad I'm not the only one layin it all on the line tryin to get pups that will stand out in the future.;

"Jealousy"

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

OK, I've got two threads on here, that this topic could fit in, but since my train of thought is more "philisophical", I'll put it on here. AND, I'm even going to ask Joe for his opinion...

On this thread and other's, we've debated some of the quirks I have seen in my male dog and a few others. Now to start off, my male dog (as is the case with many Clover dogs) is independent as all get out! And when he's been hunting regularly, he backs that up with accuracy. But at the same time, if he's in a hunt with something that has a little "attitude" or simply looks at him cross eyed, he's inclined to sneak off (even after making first tree) and split tree for the sake of simply not being with that other dog. I and many others call this making a "jealousy tree". And I've heard a few call that a "Clover trait".

Now here's the hypothesis... what if the genetic trait is the indepence and the natural desire to be by themselves, and the learned trait, are these acts of "jealousy"? For example, I had a six month old, completely ignoring his daddy, just last night. But he of course isn't afraid of his daddy, and is usually quite social with him. So he's just naturally independent.

Said another way... what if they naturally want to be by themselves, but then you add to that getting whooped by another dog, or a handler whooping them for covering another dog, and now independence manifests itself, in acts of jealousy? They are naturally ok with being by themselves, and then something teaches them that they're better off that way?

That would explain why Boom acts the way he does (due to something he experienced), but his sister, half brother, and several of his pups, don't...

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

I don't think jealous is that right word for that kind of behavior Dave.The part where he gets 1st tree and then leaves it when another dog joins in would really upset me.Sounds to me like he just wants to be alone but not holding pressure seems to be the issue at hand.It sounds like you pup has them same traits in her.Hopefully she will get 1st tree and not budge on the coon she has earned.

I think you misunderstood... He'll hold "pressure" all night long, when split. And does so, a lot.

But if he get's first and first, and a crowd piles up on him (especially if it's a bit rough) he'll sneak off and get split treed. Where again, he'll hold pressure all night long.

The "jealousy" description comes from the dog acting like they don't want to share a tree, they'd rather get their own. Hence, a potential learned behaviour, as opposed to being born with it.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

I dont think you can sepparate INDEPENDANCExJEALOUSY one is the result of the other. The million dollar ? in each individual is weather the behavior is the result of genetics or exposure.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Ok I guess I misunderstood..So this jealousy tree thing is only when a group of rough tree dogs come on the scene.Such as tree jackers or face barkers or is it just a stand the wood hard tree dog that's causing him to do this.Ive seen several dogs that would not tree will my female just cause she is a on the wood locked down tree dog.Not mean or rough just LOUD and intense.Im guessing that intimidates some dogs.Im following what your sayin that it seems as if Boom learned that habit along the way and was not born that way.

John - you're right in that I'm talking about a fine-line between traits and attributes. In attempting to answer that question, I'm sort of dissecting what may go hand in hand. I firmly beieve independence is a genetic trait, as I see it so commonly at and early age, in many of these dogs. But some of the attributes that may go along with it, like this "jealous" behavior, is not so prevalent, which leads me to think it's more nurture (or lack there of!) than nature.

Matt - I've seen him tree with dogs, for long periods of time, without issue. I've witnessed "disappearing acts" when you can hear things getting a bit rough. But I've also seen it with dogs that I know aren't "rough" although in hindsight, they may have tree-jacked a bit. So it has been hard to tell, what trips his trigger.

But again, I've said it before and will say it again. I love this dog, and would be happy to have another one just like him. But this trait is like a puzzle I need to solve. Especially since I have a miniature version of him growing up in the kennel next to him! If I can help make that dog just like him, without the jealousy, then that would be perfect in my mind.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

I raised a litter out of hardwood swamp. They were coon treeing dogs but they also got a little attitude if they got beaten to the tree. They would leave and tree somewhere else or as young dogs they would be milling around the tree, not wanting to tree and not really trying to move on. That to me is jealous behavior, moving or flat leaving to tree another because it got rough to me isn't jealous behavior he has just learned how to avoid conflict. I want a dog to tie but I also won't feed a fighting dog its a tough situation for the dog as well as the handler. Its just to bad you couldn't explain to ole boom to just back up and stay outta harms way.

1 male from the litter out of swamp I hunted with quite regularly he would rather split empty than back another dog. So 1 night i checked the females tree to make sure there was a coon then walked to him empty and brought him back to that tree that he was involved with right up until he got beat there coaxed him back up on the tree and made over him a little bit. Then shot out the coon. Although it didn't completely fix the problem it sure helped he covered alot better after that. When there was a coon there.
although he didn't have to practice it to much because he didn't get beat that often only by him momma

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if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

I hunted with a dog dozens of times that would split 90% of the time and very rarely had a coon.It would either have a den or a slick.I always thought it was jealous treeing because it never got 1st tree.It would always split close to the other dog that was treed.Maybe in thick coon it would have had more opportunity to split with a coon.Im pretty sure it was never hunted with a grouchy dog but it's possible.

You make a valid point Mark... there is a difference between choosing never to tree with another dog, and choosing to leave, because something (real or not) spooked them.

If they were rationale thinking beings, we could explain how to handle the situation, but dogs act on instinct, and that's difficult to train or re-train.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Having spent a little time on another thread this evening, has brought me a revelation...

Anyone that get's on this forum that has more answers than questions, either hasn't spent that much time in the woods, or hasn't been paying that close of attention when they do.

Does anyone agree???

Not all dogs are the same. Not all bloodlines are the same. Not every coon, track, hunt or cast is the same! These dogs aren't rational thinking beings, but we try to apply logic to them. Like life, there are way more questions and unexplainable situations than there are answers. Yet, there are no shortage of "answers" on this forum!

I started this thread to share questions, thoughts and ideas, but all too often, these threads are plugged up with THE answer from someone that is not only convinced they know best, but is unwilling to hear anything to the contrary. Sharing your experience, or thoughts on a matter, is one thing, but the old "here's what you got to do..." sure get's old.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Dave I hope I didn't come off that way.I like these kinda threads cause they are about thinking outside the box.Im ready for Joe to comment.

dang it Dave I was hoping to be the coondog guru lol

How are the pups from that cross doing ?

__________________
if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

Re: "Jealousy"

quote:

---

Originally posted by deschmidt27
*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

OK, I've got two threads on here, that this topic could fit in, but since my train of thought is more "philisophical", I'll put it on here. AND, I'm even going to ask Joe for his opinion...

On this thread and other's, we've debated some of the quirks I have seen in my male dog and a few others. Now to start off, my male dog (as is the case with many Clover dogs) is independent as all get out! And when he's been hunting regularly, he backs that up with accuracy. But at the same time, if he's in a hunt with something that has a little "attitude" or simply looks at him cross eyed, he's inclined to sneak off (even after making first tree) and split tree for the sake of simply not being with that other dog. I and many others call this making a "jealousy tree". And I've heard a few call that a "Clover trait".

Now here's the hypothesis... what if the genetic trait is the indepence and the natural desire to be by themselves, and the learned trait, are these acts of "jealousy"? For example, I had a six month old, completely ignoring his daddy, just last night. But he of course isn't afraid of his daddy, and is usually quite social with him. So he's just naturally independent.

Said another way... what if they naturally want to be by themselves, but then you add to that getting whooped by another dog, or a handler whooping them for covering another dog, and now independence manifests itself, in acts of jealousy? They are naturally ok with being by themselves, and then something teaches them that they're better off that way?

That would explain why Boom acts the way he does (due to something he experienced), but his sister, half brother, and several of his pups, don't...

---

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

jealousy

Well, I have some pups that act similar, and I have started to tie them up 20 yards from the tree if they want to be mingling there. I don't cuss them or say anything. I just tie them up. I then proceed to make a big fuss over the dog that is treed, shoot the coon, skin it, and stuff it in my backpack. The pup is going nuts, but that is ok. I then proceed to get the pup and walk out of the woods. Don't know if it is going to help, but I am going to give it a try a while.
I have been catching them treeing, but then the mingling starts when I get there. They have been progressing steadily. All that said, they are doing quite well for six months.

jealousy

I have had a couple dogs that would not honor other dogs but would hold their own tree. Let's hope they turn out like that. All that said, there are personality/genetic traits that you simply aren't going to change. In another year, that pup of yours will show his colors - mine too.