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-- Let's Discuss Performance Program (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928506868)

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
_And that is how we have gotten to where we are now. Somehow we are going to have to rein in the too deep and alone dogs. Jim says that shortening hunt time will ruin our hounds but if we don't rein in the deep and alone hounds we are going to ruin our hunts. They are becoming an endurance marathon for handlers, judges and guides. Breeding for close and alone and accurate dogs is one way to do it. If you can't win with old too deep and alone he will disappear.

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__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

This thread should be labeled the good ol days, because that’s what it has turned into. Complaining about today’s hunts and comparing them to the past isn’t going to work. The past is gone and today’s hunts will only get better by improving them off of today’s issues, not trying to copy what worked 30 years ago. It’s like looking back on a dog that has died or even a person that passed away. Once they are gone you begin thinking of them much more fondly. I do agree dogs these days are bred more to hunt deeper, it’s what wins the hunts. But to read some of these posts about dogs from the past you would think all 4 dogs always went in the same direction, all 4 treed within 400 yards of the truck with the coon. No one cheated back then and no one had a mean dog. All that talk does is make today’s hounds and hunts seem even less desireable to others.

__________________
Joe Moore
-2003 UKC Youth National Bench Show Champion
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-2007 UKC Youh National Hunt, 3rd place

-PKC Silver Ch, GRNTCH 'pr' Tree Stalkins Stylish Striker

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[i]Originally posted by Somehow we are going to have to rein in the too deep and alone dogs. Jim says that shortening hunt time will ruin our hounds but if we don't rein in the deep and alone hounds we are going to ruin our hunts. They are becoming an endurance marathon for handlers, judges and guides. Breeding for close and alone and accurate dogs is one way to do it. If you can't win with old too deep and alone he will disappear. [/B]

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If a dog is deep & alone and is fairly accurate he will only be in the ukc hunts a short while to grand, then on to getting paid.

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Shane

Jim, you may have an excellant suggestion. Too deep and alone is an unintended consequence of allowing Garmins to be used. It is one of those changes that sounded so good in theory but look at what it has led to.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Moore
[B]This thread should be labeled the good ol days, because that’s what it has turned into. Complaining about today’s hunts and comparing them to the past isn’t going to work. The past is gone and today’s hunts will only get better by improving them off of today’s issues, not trying to copy what worked 30 years ago. It’s like looking back on a dog that has died or even a person that passed away. Once they are gone you begin thinking of them much more fondly. I do agree dogs these days are bred more to hunt deeper, it’s what wins the hunts. But to read some of these posts about dogs from the past you would think all 4 dogs always went in the same direction, all 4 treed within 400 yards of the truck with the coon. No one cheated back then and no one had a mean dog. All that talk does is make today’s hounds and hunts seem even less desireable to others.

Well Joe most of the dogs did go in the same direction. The direction they were released in. Most would cover. Wasn't unusal to score all dogs and be back at the trucks in a few minutes since the guides usually had some honey holes for competition. Yep we had cheaters and mean dogs but if they got too bad they would receive a registered letter from the club inviting them to not come back. Yes todays hounds and hunts are less desirable. One of the reasons for less participation.

Well I am mad now !!! .................. Don't know what I am mad about ......... But I am mad I think lol.



Tar

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Well I am mad now !!! .................. Don't know what I am mad about ......... But I am mad I think lol.



Tar

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I just had 10 pups born there not eligible for pp. All spoken for by 2 weeks old. Just saying

Interest in Performance pups is directly linked to interest in the Performance program which is directly linked to the cash value of a Performance point..

__________________
Shane

Had a shotgun wouldn't shoot. Sold it though. One mans trash is another mans treasure. Just saying

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
I just had 10 pups born there not eligible for pp. All spoken for by 2 weeks old. Just saying

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quote:

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Originally posted by nitehunter2004
Could be that $5000 phone call.

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Oh my goodness, If you don't care about Performance Program and don't nominate your pups then why in the world are you posting on this thread? That is like the people that don't comp hunt suggesting hunt rule changes.

performance

The most glaring statistic is the number of pups not permanently paid up this takes alot of money out of the program but breeders have to take some responsibility for the litters they raise also the classified ads section is full of pups for sale how many people are going to put quality time in a pup way more pups than actual coonhunters to train them

I say the best idea is BREEDER MUST PAY THE LITTER IN FULL or they are not performanced. Don’t do nominations anymore. Don’t let people pay pups up.

1. Enroll sire in program as you do now.

2. Breeder pay the litter fee of $100, $150, or $200.

3. Pup buyer registers pup in his/her name and collects check.

I think this will increase the total dollars paid into the program. That will make the payout checks bigger.

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Tone it down guys, or they will delete another good topic...

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, If you don't care about Performance Program and don't nominate your pups then why in the world are you posting on this thread? That is like the people that don't comp hunt suggesting hunt rule changes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kenneth Tavares
I think this will increase the total dollars paid into the program. That will make the payout checks bigger.

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Richard if a stud has 50 to 500 pups on the ground and can’t win enough money each year to cover the $100 Performance fee, find a new dog to breed to.

Mr Tim.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, If you don't care about Performance Program and don't nominate your pups then why in the world are you posting on this thread? That is like the people that don't comp hunt suggesting hunt rule changes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Or it will decrease the total because breeders will think that it costs too much to pay up the whole litter. The Sire owner and breeder that pay up their Sire and pups never get their money back from the Program. The only way they recoup their money are through stud fees and increasing the price of their pups. And everyone is already complaining about the price of pups and Stud fees. Plus pups are hard to sell. One way to increase participation is if puppy buyers refuse to buy a pup that isn't paid up and dam owners refuse to breed to a Sire that isn't nominated. That is what drives PKC's Super Stakes Program. You can't give a pup away to a PKC hunter that isn't Super Stakes eligible.
Apparantly only 30% of UKC hunters are actually competition hunters and care whether the pup they buy gets nominated. The other 70% are either just pleasure hunters or don't think that they will ever win their money back.

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Tone it down guys, or they will delete another good topic...

Most people on here say it’s easy to title a dog but over 65% won’t pay a pup up and get that easy money.

Mr Tim.

There is a thread on this from last year that has good ideas that were never implemented. Based on the numbers that started the thread last year the breakdown is the litter owner not nominating the litter. This is the biggest cause for pups not being paid up. All litters out of performance sires should be litter nominated by the sires enrollment fee. Just by checking a box on the litter registration form, yes the sire is a performance sire. This would increase the number of pups being paid up later and result in more money and dogs in the program. Also pups should be allowed to be paid up at a higher fee at any age. Just make it a lot higher after one year.


The forms are also part of the problem. Sires should be able to be easily paid up online. The puppy registration papers should include a section to permanently nominate the pup. UKC also needs to get with a DNA analysis group that can quickly get the analysis done so there isn't so much lag time getting a sire ready to go in the program.

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The Performance program is set up for failure.. the more dogs involved the less the points are worth... Everybody that earns points is hoping less dogs earn points so the points are worth more.. that is not a program that will sustain itself..
.. If those points earned qualified your dog for a big national hunt that would pay out a big payout to the winners would be way more interesting than the way it is set up now ,where everybody that earns points get a little meaningless piece of the pie... A program where a points race and points earned would get qualified for a big dance would sell i guarantee ..if those points you earned qualified you for a big national hunt off ..That has prestige that goes with it ,and your also selling hype and hope.. People will buy the heck out of hype and hope...... It's a joke the way it's set up now... A small minority of people like the way it is set up now because they are getting a little kickback from something that has a small investment... That's my opinion

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performance

It looks like one big paper trail to me all heading to the zoo in Michigan