UKC Forums - Why and What?

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Posted by max destruction on 09-16-2013 10:59 PM:

I no all about it and trust me it dont matter what color dog yur huntin causr some of your fellow bluetickers will cut your throat the same!

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Posted by BIG$BLUES on 09-16-2013 11:25 PM:

It's going to take a dog that has that consistency one cant be always takin the gambles

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-16-2013 11:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
I no all about it and trust me it dont matter what color dog yur huntin causr some of your fellow bluetickers will cut your throat the same!

lol I know all about that too

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-17-2013 12:08 AM:

You bluetick guys probably dont want to hear this, but the reason the Blueticks dont win more isnt because of the dogs, its whats on the other end of the lead.
Theres a big hole in the breeding program and evaluation process when the breeders that are selecting dogs to cross arent Competition hunters. How are the ones with what it takes to win gonna be consistantly identified if they arent taken to town, And if you really believe in the pups your producing get them in the hands of the guys who know how to win. Trust me those guys dont care what color a dog is, They would hunt a pink poodle if it was a winner. If a guys breeding race horses that he never takes to the track, or he decides to be his own jockey his program probably wont be very sucessful.

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Posted by Tom Jones on 09-17-2013 12:11 AM:

consistent

I am sorry that some of y'all put yourselves through the misery of hanging on to hounds that you never know what they're going to do

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Posted by Blue Iron on 09-17-2013 01:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
some of your fellow bluetickers will cut your throat the same!

Amen to that.

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Posted by everett on 09-17-2013 01:51 AM:

good luck

to the 9 blues head to the big dance, and it,s not over until it,s over.......Gerald

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Posted by BLUE NO IT ALL on 09-17-2013 06:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
You bluetick guys probably dont want to hear this, but the reason the Blueticks dont win more isnt because of the dogs, its whats on the other end of the lead.
Theres a big hole in the breeding program and evaluation process when the breeders that are selecting dogs to cross arent Competition hunters. How are the ones with what it takes to win gonna be consistantly identified if they arent taken to town, And if you really believe in the pups your producing get them in the hands of the guys who know how to win. Trust me those guys dont care what color a dog is, They would hunt a pink poodle if it was a winner. If a guys breeding race horses that he never takes to the track, or he decides to be his own jockey his program probably wont be very sucessful.

I'm sure glad that the competition hunters themselves aren't to blame for a blue dog not winning the World Hunt! It's a big relief to know that those people have no control over what they breed to it's all pleasure hunters fault because they don't know what it takes to win. I am not a breeder or a competition hunter but I am very selective in what I hunt! I prefer a dog that goes HUNTING not run down the edge of a creek or timber until it runs on to a track! Then when it hits a track work it one way and get treed a high percentage of the time with a coon. Straight line dogs and dogs that just make trees are not my type of dog and all you guys that like 'em that way if I get one he'll be for sale and you can use it for your competition type bloodline! 'nuff said!

Posted by ov_blues on 09-17-2013 07:34 PM:

There has been some useful information on this thread. I'd appreciate it if it can remain on track and not get deleted.

ORIGINAL POST

Why and What?
If I wanted to add a trait to my dogs, and they were Walkers, I would have a pretty good idea where to go. Say it was "tree" that I needed or "track", there are bloodlines of dogs that a majority of Walker breeders would say to go to like Rat or Wipeout/Clover. It also seems like their isn't any problem with those lines being identified with having those traits. So, why is so easy to discuss some of the known traits within the Walker bloodlines but if a strength or weakness is discussed within the Bluetick breed, all heck might break loose?

Probably asking too much, but this is just for discussion, not to see if I can get all heck to break loose.

What lines or individual dogs do some of you think would be known for being well above average on a particular trait ( tree, go, independence, locating ability, accuracy, etc. ) and would improve that trait on most other bloodline?

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Posted by ov_blues on 09-17-2013 07:38 PM:

The original question did not 100% apply to just competition hunting. It could apply the other way, like colder noses, closer hunting dogs, etc. that might apply to what someone might want in a pleasure dog.

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Posted by BLUE NO IT ALL on 09-17-2013 08:10 PM:

SORRY JOHN I didn't mean to hijack your post or try to get it deleted! I have enjoyed reading this post a lot just got my feathers ruffled a little. I have over fifty years of following and training hounds of all breeds and I prefer a blue dog. The biggest thing I think these blue dogs need is a little more track speed. Some people think that too much nose is a fault but a dog that can drift an old track right can also flat out run the hair off of a good track. Usually a good track dog is intelligent and we can never have too much of that in any strain. One thing I'd like to say on the nose issue is that most of these hunts are held in the summertime where here where I live when the winters get rough and cold you need a dog with a good nose to keep treeing coon. I am not against competition hunting or hunters at all! I hope a blue dog wins the World Hunt this year. I love bluetick hounds and would like nothing better than seeing them improve to the top! I wasn't trying to offend anyone!

Posted by ov_blues on 09-17-2013 08:53 PM:

Perfectly Fine

I was just ask if I wanted the thread deleted and I said no. There have been a lot of good things and some negative things said on this thread that should get people thinking a little bit. I agree with the nose and track speed 100%. Follow a hound that has a cold nose and super speed and anything less is pretty boring imo. They are rare and should be used regardless. I think that worrying about making a mistake can cause some crosses to not be made. If the cross is a mistake, so be it, don't use the offspring and move on. If the cross is an improvement, great, then figure out how to use that cross.

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Posted by BLUE NO IT ALL on 09-17-2013 09:14 PM:

I agree with you about being afraid to make mistakes. I have the utmost respect for what you and your dad have strived to do to improve the bluetick hounds. You are out here always trying to improve the dogs we hunt and it's easy to tell you love these blue dogs! My hat's off to you and all the fellow bluetick men who are striving to achieve the goal of making the blueticks the best they can be. I hope we can all stay open minded and not be judgemental of anyones efforts and work together to reach our ultimate goal of putting Mr. Blue on top.

Posted by southernthunder on 09-17-2013 11:15 PM:

Re: Perfectly Fine

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
I was just ask if I wanted the thread deleted and I said no. There have been a lot of good things and some negative things said on this thread that should get people thinking a little bit. I agree with the nose and track speed 100%. Follow a hound that has a cold nose and super speed and anything less is pretty boring imo. They are rare and should be used regardless. I think that worrying about making a mistake can cause some crosses to not be made. If the cross is a mistake, so be it, don't use the offspring and move on. If the cross is an improvement, great, then figure out how to use that cross.

I like the nose power and track speed too! we don't have many pop up coon around here and its fun to be in the lead on a rutting boar coon late in the winter listening to the race. I love to listen to good music like that lol

Posted by gcblues on 09-18-2013 12:15 AM:

Re: MY GOODNESS

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Moore
I haven't heard so much indifference in a while. By the way, this is a very good thread John. I met your Dad many years ago and we had a wonderful conversation on the old Hammer dogs. He was a good man.

Over the last 40 some years I have hunted almost every Bluetick blood line out there. I have seen good and bad in all of them. I have been breeding these blue devils sense 1979 and I still haven't got them figured out. I have gone to the best with the best female I had and still got average results but I've always managed to keep a pretty nice hound around, (IMO). I love a Bluetick hound, period! Call me what you want. I've been with world Ch dogs and guess what, they will look bad too, they're just dogs, not machines, which by the way, sounds like many on here are looking for.

One thing I would like to bring up is the All Blue, (no tan trim) dog. I am hunting some now that go back to Shelton Morris' old Boomer stock. As a general rule, they run with their head up, pretty darn quick and know how to tree and you don't have to cup your hand to your ear to hear them. Back to the All Blue thing. It seems that no matter how good a dog is, coloration sometimes henders them. Why is that? English folks don't mind and I've seen some dang sorry walkers as well. Good is good no matter the size, color ect... I've had good luck with these dogs and I think I will keep them for a while. JMO, which won't get you much these days. Great post! Keep it going.

Ron

Posted by gcblues on 09-18-2013 12:25 AM:

my goodness

Hey Ron, I have an awesome all blue pleasure hound . 18 month old beautiful dog .He'll hunt a little too. I notice your post has mountain state blueticks .My dog has three mountain state dogs in his sire pedigree .You know these dogs? Tell me about them .

mountain state big bud
mountain state brandy
mountain state bonie

Posted by Ron Moore on 09-19-2013 08:36 PM:

Re: my goodness

quote:
Originally posted by gcblues
Hey Ron, I have an awesome all blue pleasure hound . 18 month old beautiful dog .He'll hunt a little too. I notice your post has mountain state blueticks .My dog has three mountain state dogs in his sire pedigree .You know these dogs? Tell me about them .

mountain state big bud
mountain state brandy
mountain state bonie

I will pm you, I don't want to stray from the oridginal subject. This is a fine thread.

Keep em strait John!

Posted by ov_blues on 09-19-2013 08:55 PM:

Re: Re: my goodness

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Moore
I will pm you, I don't want to stray from the oridginal subject. This is a fine thread.

Keep em strait John!

Hey Ron, Fire away on here. The answer would go directly toward the subject of traits.

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Posted by Ron Moore on 09-20-2013 12:50 AM:

Re: Re: Re: my goodness

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Hey Ron, Fire away on here. The answer would go directly toward the subject of traits.

Thanks John. These three dogs were some of the best I've ever owned. Bud was very a wide hunter with a superior mouth that could be heard for a great distance. He put a lot of that in his pups. He was very quick on trail and on tree and would stay till you arived. He was an alpha male and was a little too doggy for me but would not fight. He died way before his time at 7 with a lot left to do but that is what coon hunting is all about. I am very satisfied with he left me. As for old Bonnie, she was the best bluetick female I ever owned or hunted with on a regular basis. Hammer breeding top and bottom and a heart of a lion with a mouth to boot. I sold Brandy at about 4 years of age and he hunted her till she died at 9. She was an all nighter that would ware you out and was the death of many of coon. She was out of old Bonnie and Ron Taylers Levi. I still have the blood of these hounds plus many more great ones that make up what I hunt now. We'll talk later, gettin' ready to go huntin'.

Thanks, Ron

Posted by 408northville on 09-20-2013 02:30 AM:

The following shows how traits are passed on from one generation to the next in this example, one of my hounds. Notice how some of the older hounds, contribute more than hounds that are closer to the pup. The IC is much higher but since I just showed four generations, the percentage would increase with more related ancestors in the background of this pup.

Coefficient for PR Blue Pup

Inbreeding 0.1796875 (17.96875%) for the above pup.(Based on four generations)

(Ancestor loss coefficient) 63.33333333333% for the above pup.(Based on four generations)

Percent of blood by ancestor
1. PR Blue__ 50% Sire
2. PR Blue__ 50% D

3. PR Blue__ 25%
4. PR Blue__50%
5. PR Blue__25%
6. PR Blue__12.5%

7. PR Blue__12.5%
8. PR Blue__25%
9. PR Blue__25%
10.PR Blue__12.5%
11.PR Blue__12.5%
12.PR Blue__6.25%
13.PR Blue__37.5%
14.PR Blue__6.25%
15.PR Blue__6.25%
16.PR Blue__6.25%
17.PR Blue__25%
18.PR Blue__6.25%
19.PR Blue__6.25%

Posted by blueticker on 09-20-2013 05:48 AM:

All this genetic knowledge and percentages and a big percentage of a top hound is training. Seen too many good bred pups culled because of trainers or lack of training.

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Posted by 408northville on 09-20-2013 11:56 AM:

Your right, 50% is environment.

quote:
Originally posted by blueticker
All this genetic knowledge and percentages and a big percentage of a top hound is training. Seen too many good bred pups culled because of trainers or lack of training.

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-20-2013 02:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
The following shows how traits are passed on from one generation to the next in this example, one of my hounds. Notice how some of the older hounds, contribute more than hounds that are closer to the pup. The IC is much higher but since I just showed four generations, the percentage would increase with more related ancestors in the background of this pup.

Coefficient for PR Blue Pup

Inbreeding 0.1796875 (17.96875%) for the above pup.(Based on four generations)

(Ancestor loss coefficient) 63.33333333333% for the above pup.(Based on four generations)

Percent of blood by ancestor
1. PR Blue__ 50% Sire
2. PR Blue__ 50% D

3. PR Blue__ 25%
4. PR Blue__50%
5. PR Blue__25%
6. PR Blue__12.5%

7. PR Blue__12.5%
8. PR Blue__25%
9. PR Blue__25%
10.PR Blue__12.5%
11.PR Blue__12.5%
12.PR Blue__6.25%
13.PR Blue__37.5%
14.PR Blue__6.25%
15.PR Blue__6.25%
16.PR Blue__6.25%
17.PR Blue__25%
18.PR Blue__6.25%
19.PR Blue__6.25%

is 3,4,5 and 6 the grandparents? if so they are 25% their blood regardless of you coefficient............only way they can be more of it is being doubled up on the same grandparent. everything in the third is considered 12.5%, so if you have the same gr-grndad 3 x's in the third the hound would carry 37.5% of his genes. that still doesnt mean he carries any of his traits allthough they would have a better chance.

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Posted by 408northville on 09-20-2013 02:59 PM:

Tom,

The important numbers are the IC and LC, if there was an outcross those numbers would be lower and much higher, so you would loose most if not all of you would hope to gain.(One outross in the example that I provided.) 0.015625 ( IC 1.5625%)
In regards to what you wrote below the degree of genetic relationship is not an automatic percent, but a range from one extreme, as in the case of identical twins, to an exceedingly unlikely 0%. In other words, siblings share an average of 50% of their genes, but unlike the 50%, the actual ratio between littermates in any given case can vary among those in the same litter.
In addition to the above you would have to look beyond the four generations that I listed because those hounds have a very important part of the breeding program.

JTG

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
is 3,4,5 and 6 the grandparents? if so they are 25% their blood regardless of you coefficient............only way they can be more of it is being doubled up on the same grandparent. everything in the third is considered 12.5%, so if you have the same gr-grndad 3 x's in the third the hound would carry 37.5% of his genes. that still doesnt mean he carries any of his traits allthough they would have a better chance.

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-20-2013 03:44 PM:

stump and 408

stump, its a debate i guess.

408...........the way I said is exactly how the foundation quarter horse assoc. does their % to see if horses qualify and what % they are. you can yabba dabba doo bout all your numbers you want but the simple fact is they carry 50% from mommy and 50% from daddy, anything in the fourth can be no less then 6.25%. Im talking blood here, not silly chromosones and etc which some think they have all figured out,,,,,,,,,,,,good for you doc. btw: go look at the dogs that have won wrld titles and etc. lots of them are outcrosses and they reproduce also. doc bar x poco mares............find me a cuttin horse who dont carry this blood, complete outcross, look how many in the 60-70-80's carried this blood that finished in the top 50 in the ncha futurity. doc bar wasnt even cow bred, kinda like adding a lil bird dog huh

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