UKC Forums - Judge this??

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-- Judge this?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928272815)

Posted by southernthunder on 10-05-2012 12:12 AM:

sorry i worded that in that way. i don't want to offend anyone. after reading the rules myself i questioned what to do and especially after reading many of your post so i called Todd because i wanted clarity on this call for myself and he will tell you that i what i told him. i don't want to make the wrong call either and cost someone a hunt. he explained it to me like i wrote it and after listening to him it all made perfect easy sense. if they wouldn't have called the dogs treed it would have all been different, but because they made that call and put it on paper it has to be delt with, and because they left a tree that they were called treed on without handling them, they are minused. calling the dogs treed is what made the difference, because they have to be handled at the tree.

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Posted by Rip on 10-05-2012 12:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
sorry i worded that in that way. i don't want to offend anyone. after reading the rules myself i questioned what to do and especially after reading many of your post so i called Todd because i wanted clarity on this call for myself and he will tell you that i what i told him. i don't want to make the wrong call either and cost someone a hunt. he explained it to me like i wrote it and after listening to him it all made perfect easy sense. if they wouldn't have called the dogs treed it would have all been different, but because they made that call and put it on paper it has to be delt with, and because they left a tree that they were called treed on without handling them, they are minused. calling the dogs treed is what made the difference, because they have to be handled at the tree.

That may be so AFTER Todd or Allen make it official, but right now, as the rules are written, ESPECIALLY in light of the Advisor on page 55 saying as soon as you SEE the dogs on a previously scored tree they are deleted then delete is the only way we can go and be within the rules (again unless they have already made an official ruling we didn't know about).

As someone else already said the only reason I doubted the way you presented it is because Todd doesn't go against the Advisor and we have an Advisor saying the points are deleted as soon as you SEE they are on the previously scored tree and those dogs were not handled either.

That's why I wondered how it was presented.

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Posted by southernthunder on 10-05-2012 12:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
That may be so AFTER Todd or Allen make it official, but right now, as the rules are written, ESPECIALLY in light of the Advisor on page 55 saying as soon as you SEE the dogs on a previously scored tree they are deleted then delete is the only way we can go and be within the rules (again unless they have already made an official ruling we didn't know about).

As someone else already said the only reason I doubted the way you presented it is because Todd doesn't go against the Advisor and we have an Advisor saying the points are deleted as soon as you SEE they are on the previously scored tree and those dogs were not handled either.

That's why I wondered how it was presented.

like he said if they would not have treed those dogs it would have been different, but tree call was made and they have to be handled at that tree, but were seen leaving there, so they have to be minused. he said it used to be that when someone said handle your dog that it was over, but not anymore. he said they have to be handled or minused, and i totally agree with that call.

Posted by BIG HAROLD on 10-05-2012 12:33 AM:

BIG HAROLD has spoken, MINUS the 2 dogs that left the previously scored tree. END of discussion

Posted by southernthunder on 10-05-2012 12:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
BIG HAROLD has spoken, MINUS the 2 dogs that left the previously scored tree. END of discussion

thats what the man that makes the final rulling said to do...

Posted by englishbuddy on 10-05-2012 03:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG HAROLD
BIG HAROLD has spoken, MINUS the 2 dogs that left the previously scored tree. END of discussion

IT IS NOT A SCORING SITUATION !!!!!!! DEAD TREE IS A DEAD TREE ....END OF DISCUSSION

Posted by southernthunder on 10-05-2012 03:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
IT IS NOT A SCORING SITUATION !!!!!!! DEAD TREE IS A DEAD TREE ....END OF DISCUSSION

according to Todd it is!!! anytime you give the tree call they have to be handled at that tree or get the minus. 2 things they did wrong. 1. treed their dogs 2. the dogs left a tree they were called treed on without being handled

Posted by l.lyle on 10-05-2012 03:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
according to Todd it is!!! anytime you give the tree call they have to be handled at that tree or get the minus. 2 things they did wrong. 1. treed their dogs 2. the dogs left a tree they were called treed on without being handled

OK so we normally walk them at least out from under the limbs of the tree and cut them but sometimes if we are in a thicket we might go back a couple hundred feet or yards to some open woods to cut them. Now I will admit anybody ought to be able to tell if dogs get back on trees but some evidently can't; or now, might just say they can't tell . So have we found a new handling advantage here by calling your dog treed ? I know mine went back but now if I don't call him I take minus. UHHM might work good trying to burn up the last 20 minutes in a hunt. Heck, who knows? might even find a coon or a possum or a slick tree when we go back and rescore that dead tree. LOL

Obviously, the easy solution is to send into a bucket, score the tree , call time out, load the dogs and move on to the next bucket. very few dogs will go to the trouble of going back to a bucket a half mile back.

Posted by englishbuddy on 10-05-2012 11:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
according to Todd it is!!! anytime you give the tree call they have to be handled at that tree or get the minus. 2 things they did wrong. 1. treed their dogs 2. the dogs left a tree they were called treed on without being handled

As soon as they were known to be to a scored tree its a mute point !!!!!! Not a scoring situation ....

Posted by southernthunder on 10-05-2012 01:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
As soon as they were known to be to a scored tree its a mute point !!!!!! Not a scoring situation ....

call Todd at Ukc and argue with him! he said they are minused.

Posted by Rip on 10-05-2012 03:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
call Todd at Ukc and argue with him! he said they are minused.

That isn't official yet as far as I can tell.

See what most folks don't understand is how hard the job of rules interpretation is. You have to protect the integrity of UKC and you have to make sure your interpretations follow the precedent set by the previous advisors as well as will it hold up in a court of law if something goes wrong like the World Hunt ended up in several years ago. Then as the advisor you don't want to make a ruling that a previous Advisor condradicts nor do you want to make a ruling out of the blue that goes against the written rule and the meanings of words in the English language, which would trip up future Advisors. Permissive wording such as "may" is easier to get around. Concrete wording such as "shall" or "NO", "Never" or "Will" doesn't give you much leeway as an interpreter.

The reason they haven't come on here and made an official ruling is because they have to look at the entire situation, the entire rules and what the words mean AND go back and research previous advisors etc.

I don't envy them one bit. If you rule the "right" way and give the dog his deserved minus you will be ruling against precident with the fact that the advisor on page 55 says dogs don't have to be handled to have their points deleted. Plus you will be ruling against the heirchy of rules where if a rule is present for a specific thing that rule is the most important one. That's why a dog can quit 15 tracks but can't get minused if he comes in to a tree after the judge arrives, because there is a rule that deals specifically with that. Plus, because it would be going against the firm wording of NO this would make it harder on future Advisors not to condradict this. So if you say the dog is minused it's tree points even though there is a specific rule dealing with going to a previously scored tree then you could open the door for folks wanting to minus dogs for quitting track for coming in after the judge arrives. You have to try and be consistent. If you use heiarchy for one rule then you have to do it for the others too. If you skip it for one you open the door to skip it for others.

On the other hand, if they say delete then they will be letting a dog get away with leaving a tree, something I am betting they never intended and most practicing coonhunters (myself included) feel needs to be minused. Dogs shouldn't be leaving trees period, but sometimes because of the wording of the rules you have to let dogs get away with things you don't want them to and change the wording to fix it like UKC did with the shut out on strike rule where dogs used to be able to do anything they wanted without repercussion on their strike points if they were shut out. They fixed it. I think even if they rule to delete they will change the wording of this rule eventually so we can minuse them for leaving the tree in the future just like they did with the shut out on strike rules.

Whatever they rule that's the way it is until they change the wording of the rules or a different interpretation of the Advisor.

It takes lots of time and research to do that job. It's very difficult and they won't say anything officially until they are ready to do so.

For all I know they may have already ruled on this with a previous advisor and they are just looking for it. I know I can't remember all the Advisors.

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Posted by BIG HAROLD on 10-05-2012 03:57 PM:

ANYTIME soon you call a dog treed, it is a scoring situation. If not we wouldn't tree them, we'd just go look. Scoring as in, delete, minus, plus, or circle. You've got to score it. It would have been different if they would have agreed to walk in and see if it was a previously scored tree, before they called them treed

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-05-2012 04:58 PM:

You could just minus them and then UN minus them once you plainly see its a previously scored tree. Yall can UN minus one. Don't worry bout it. Sometimes in ukc you have to if you play by the rules

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Posted by Cheyenne on 10-05-2012 11:58 PM:

For all the ones who do not understand why they get minus points is the ones I hope not to draw

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Posted by turman on 10-06-2012 12:19 AM:

I have the prefect solution, a rule change. Scratch any dog that goes back even once. I know i can live with it even if I might end up in the truck once with a young dog.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 10-06-2012 12:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by turman
I have the prefect solution, a rule change. Scratch any dog that goes back even once. I know i can live with it even if I might end up in the truck once with a young dog.

Sounds like a plan to me. Let's also put in there you just walk 30 sec an turn back loose. Not a min. That's to long.

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Posted by WEBBER on 10-08-2012 09:19 PM:

ttt

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Posted by WEBBER on 10-15-2012 02:44 PM:

So, is UKC saving this one for the advisor column or what?
I'd like to hear the answer form UKC. This scenario seems to come up more often as more are training their hounds to not return to a previous tree, and are more or less light broke.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 10-17-2012 05:04 AM:

As far as I'm concerned,they're minused until Todd or Allen post differently.I'm suprised we haven't heard from one of them yet.Alot of different opinions on how to handle this situation and an official ruling sure would clear it all up??

How about it Todd or Allen......What is UKC's official ruling guys?

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Posted by l.lyle on 10-17-2012 10:34 AM:

I just wish UKC would come up with an official statement on political threads, Say it plain and put it in the stickies. DFO NOT BE CHICKEN Stuff. SAY it out loud. I am tired of some unknown Cracker deleting my posts . How about that? Give Some guidelines . Some RULES . Lets' get together and count the hairs on Hairy Bawls then. I graduated highschool a very long time ago and fought my way to several degrees . I do not need a monitor especially an ignorant one to tell me what is acceptable by deleting . Is it the head knocker at UKC pullimg the strings or do we have an ignorant moran lkke that woman tonight being a moderater in a debate? Anyway I am glad glad bothe the Governor and the President ignored her like she was a piece of s___!Thank You.

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