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Picking a stud ?

With there being 7 breeds of Ukc recognized Coonhounds and now being able to X breed. What tools do you all use to determine what stud dog to use? Do you go by hunts that he has won? Number of puppies reproduced? If he's on the reproducers list? Bloodlines behind him? What he's won in pkc? If he's handy when she's ready? Or something else? And why? I've heard the whole look for what holes she has and find a dog strong in those points. But first off if her holes are that bad why are we breeding her? Plus you can take a dog weak on tree and breed it to a treeing idiot but I don't think you're going to end up with a litter of pups that tree perfect, are you? Some on here have been breeding for a long time and made all kinds of crosses. So what works and why? Yes it's never a sure thing but surely it can be better than just a roll of the dice. So just what homework should be done before breeding?

Which ever stud produces pups that sale the quickest

__________________
jason

Your 1st homework should be Where Your Pups Gonna end up, What is in there kennel, did they raise an train them, Have they sold nice started dogs.

Watch a bloodline or a certain dog long enough to see what or if it’s going to reproduce workable dogs. I like raising my own after several generations it’s neet to see how they have the same traits you can see a lot that have been passed down from the old ones to the young ones.



Tar

I sure don't claim to be a breeder, but I have talked at length to some very respected breeders. They gave me the following advice:

1) Research bloodlines and find a stud that has good/great littermates from that bloodline that might compliment your female.
2) Breed for purpose beyond having a pup from your dog.
3) Find a stud from that bloodline that is highly intelligent and capable of learning things beyond treeing coon.
4) Actually HUNT with the stud and see if you like him and what he does in the woods.
5) hunt with offspring, nieces, Nephew, uncle, sire, dam, or other similar bred dogs and see if you like them and if they are similar to the potential stud.
6) Know the person behind the dog. Was he trained and raised by one man or passed around? Is the owner the breeder of the stud or did they buy him for a 'stud' dog? Are they a good person you want to do business with or not.
7) Take responsibility for the breeding. If it fails, it is on you and the decision you made. Don't make excuses or pass blame, you'll get due credit if it works.

All of these people made it a point to tell me that they'd had many more failures than successes and all agreed that breeding is as much an art as science. And they all said the only way to truly know is to make the cross and get them in the hands of capable hunters.

Best of luck!

My experience

My family has been raising hounds for many years however when I started out on my own I made several mistakes just like many others my opinions will differ some from other hunters as well but everyone is entitled to their own opinion what I have found to be the best from my experiences are
1 I believe it starts with a good solid female she half of what your pups potential will be
2 don’t get caught up in the hype coon hound stud just because he may be the best thing going doesn’t mean he will work for you
3 if at all possible do your homework and hunt with the stud(s) of your choice I have hunted with some that were excellent and some that I would consider average
4 were all his wins at or around a local area or is he an all type of terrain hound
This is what I would recommend looking at to start off with

As Andy pointed out, the #1 or first thing to do when picking a stud is to pick the right female. Most people forget about or overlook the female and jump right into picking a stud.

Not to sidetrack the post, but I am curious. How do you pick the right female? If you don't own her, how do you influence what she's bred to? I personally know of some top females that didn't reproduce anything and also know of a few I wouldn't have bred that consistently produced nice dogs. Thanks for sharing your thoughts so we can learn from your experience.

GES

A lot of top females made the stud look better than he really was. In all reality if you buy a pup and it makes a top dog you got lucky But if you raise your own litters and keep up with where they all went if you pick wrong you might be able to buy one back.



Tar

Tar, I agree with you to some degree. The question is what is a 'top' female? Until they have a litter of pups, you don't know what she'll produce. And then it depends on what you bred her to, correct? Male or female, what determines if they are breeding stock? That is truly the question being asked. I will guarantee you that I can name exceptions to everything that will be said after this post. We all recognize reproducers after they have produced offspring and very, very few guess correct before hand.

GES

quote:

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Originally posted by GES
Tar, I agree with you to some degree. The question is what is a 'top' female? Until they have a litter of pups, you don't know what she'll produce. And then it depends on what you bred her to, correct? Male or female, what determines if they are breeding stock? That is truly the question being asked. I will guarantee you that I can name exceptions to everything that will be said after this post. We all recognize reproducers after they have produced offspring and very, very few guess correct before hand.

GES

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Tar,
Explain what you mean in your post. Are you saying that because you've raised 4 generations of top females that all of the pups will turn out to be good dogs regardless of what you breed her to? If the one you keep doesn't make the grade, do you buy the one that does and use it for future breeding stock? What if its the only pup in the litter that is worth a hoot? Do you breed another generation even if the current female isn't as good as previous generations? If so, how do you select a stud? Don't go fishing now or bring up Lipper, I am not looking for a short cut and would like to know the long road! Answers please. LOL.

quote:

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Originally posted by GES
Tar,
Explain what you mean in your post. Are you saying that because you've raised 4 generations of top females that all of the pups will turn out to be good dogs regardless of what you breed her to? If the one you keep doesn't make the grade, do you buy the one that does and use it for future breeding stock? What if its the only pup in the litter that is worth a hoot? Do you breed another generation even if the current female isn't as good as previous generations? If so, how do you select a stud? Don't go fishing now or bring up Lipper, I am not looking for a short cut and would like to know the long road! Answers please. LOL.

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Now we are learning something....Did you ever consider that the other dogs in the pedigree influenced Deacon more than Tar Rattler? What if something in Chief and Nell's pedigree back a generation of two resulted in his greatness? Could you be linebreeding on the wrong dog(s)? or did you see a few similar traits that you knew came from Rattler and assumed that is the reason why Deacon was special? Just asking....

The truth rattler was gone I liked chief and I was still hunting dogs for delton at at that time and it didn’t cost me anything lol. But Nell was a tight mouth drifting explosive accurate treedog as was deacon that’s the kind I like. Grntch granny ( hell female ) and grchgrntch macie and grchntch boomer were a 3 pup litter my female is out of macie. Her littermate sister my son ownes produced the grchntch yadkin tar Fred dog I hunted a couple years back I bred Fred back to granny only two pups mine was just average and I sold him Fred ford ownes one named boomer that’s almost a dual grand. We have three pups that are half brouthers to him that are looking good but who knows. I know it’s a mess but sometimes you got to walk through a lot of weeds to pick the fruit.


Determination to finish what they started accurately is what I seen.

Tar

Interesting. So, would you have paid the fee to breed to Chief if Delton didn't own him because you thought that was the best choice for Nell? Do you believe Chief was the closest thing in ability and reproduced the same traits as Rattler in his pups? I do appreciate your honesty and sharing your story. I hope others are paying attention.......

GES

quote:

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Originally posted by GES
Interesting. So, would you have paid the fee to breed to Chief if Delton didn't own him because you thought that was the best choice for Nell? Do you believe Chief was the closest thing in ability and reproduced the same traits as Rattler in his pups? I do appreciate your honesty and sharing your story. I hope others are paying attention.......

GES

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To get back on track on selecting a stud.........

The late Mr. Terry Daniel of Iowa shared with me that when he looked for a stud dog to breed to his GrNtCh Daniel's Big Dot, he took her and hunted with the potential stud one on one. By his own evaluation, if they did not beat her in a head to head then he wouldn't even consider breeding her to them. He said guys were begging him to breed, but he wouldn't if they didn;t have a better dog. He chose Finley River Dan Jr. Terry said those pups were good ones, but Dan Jr. got run over before he could make the cross again. He then went to Finley River Dan since he sired Dan Jr. That's the cross that produced GrNt Daniel's Willie and other well known Daniel bred dogs. Terry also purchased Wick's Stylish Banjo and used him to cross on Big Dot/Dan Jr females because Banjo was a 'proven stud'. At the time we spoke, Terry had produced 4 generations of Grand Nites and World Champion Daniel's Duke all going back to his original Big Dot/Dan/Banjo crosses. He was also a successful breeder of beagles. I believe Terry had the ability to recognize detail that others overlooked or didn't place value on. Terry was an uncompromising breeder and called it like he saw it. You didn't have to agree with him, but he'd sure tell you what he thought.

quote:

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Originally posted by GES
To get back on track on selecting a stud.........

The late Mr. Terry Daniel of Iowa shared with me that when he looked for a stud dog to breed to his GrNtCh Daniel's Big Dot, he took her and hunted with the potential stud one on one. By his own evaluation, if they did not beat her in a head to head then he wouldn't even consider breeding her to them. He said guys were begging him to breed, but he wouldn't if they didn;t have a better dog. He chose Finley River Dan Jr. Terry said those pups were good ones, but Dan Jr. got run over before he could make the cross again. He then went to Finley River Dan since he sired Dan Jr. That's the cross that produced GrNt Daniel's Willie and other well known Daniel bred dogs. Terry also purchased Wick's Stylish Banjo and used him to cross on Big Dot/Dan Jr females because Banjo was a 'proven stud'. At the time we spoke, Terry had produced 4 generations of Grand Nites and World Champion Daniel's Duke all going back to his original Big Dot/Dan/Banjo crosses. He was also a successful breeder of beagles. I believe Terry had the ability to recognize detail that others overlooked or didn't place value on. Terry was an uncompromising breeder and called it like he saw it. You didn't have to agree with him, but he'd sure tell you what he thought.

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Foundation then line bred

quote:

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Originally posted by GES
To get back on track on selecting a stud.........

The late Mr. Terry Daniel of Iowa shared with me that when he looked for a stud dog to breed to his GrNtCh Daniel's Big Dot, he took her and hunted with the potential stud one on one. By his own evaluation, if they did not beat her in a head to head then he wouldn't even consider breeding her to them. He said guys were begging him to breed, but he wouldn't if they didn;t have a better dog. He chose Finley River Dan Jr. Terry said those pups were good ones, but Dan Jr. got run over before he could make the cross again. He then went to Finley River Dan since he sired Dan Jr. That's the cross that produced GrNt Daniel's Willie and other well known Daniel bred dogs. Terry also purchased Wick's Stylish Banjo and used him to cross on Big Dot/Dan Jr females because Banjo was a 'proven stud'. At the time we spoke, Terry had produced 4 generations of Grand Nites and World Champion Daniel's Duke all going back to his original Big Dot/Dan/Banjo crosses. He was also a successful breeder of beagles. I believe Terry had the ability to recognize detail that others overlooked or didn't place value on. Terry was an uncompromising breeder and called it like he saw it. You didn't have to agree with him, but he'd sure tell you what he thought.

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I'll tell you all I know.......

Daniel's Big Dot was Terry's measuring stick and he considered her a top performing female and what he wanted in a dog. He told me that he wouldn't consider a male that wasn't better than her because his goal was to have as good or better dogs than Dot. He chose Dan Jr. because he was as good or better....and not just one night. Terry hunted with him more than one night and more than a single drop. Terry said Dan Jr. was 'yard dog' smart, too. He had also done some research on bloodlines at the time and Finley River dogs were popular and winning most big hunts. Of the Finley River dogs he hunted with, only Dan Jr. impressed him and was better than Dot so that is what he chose. That covers items 1-4 in my first post. When Jr. was run over and killed, he went to the sire of Dan Jr. which by that time had some age on him and was a 'proven' reproducer--see item 5. Item 6--he bought Wick's Stylish Banjo from John Wick. Banjo had produced some good pups and Wick was a well known dog man at the time so it was a logical choice for an outcross. Terry had watched Banjo, his offspring, and knew Banjo's background--Paul Gregg of Missouri/John Wick. Finally, Terry put 'Daniel's' in all of his dog's name and didn't call his dogs 'Finley River' or 'Banjo Style' etc. to 'ride somebody else's shirt tail' as he said. He made the crosses and he took the credit or the blame. Until his hearing got bad, he handled his own dogs and was a fierce competitor known for leading a pretty good dog. Once he had the genetics he wanted, then he linebred to keep them--only using the best dogs from good crosses. It's one man's story and I wish he was hear to tell you himself..... I have heard a similar philosophy from breeders like Denny Kirby (Bluetick), Dennis Steinhauser (English), Lonnie Mears (Walker), and Bill Mack (Black and Tan). Winston Aaron is a wealth of knowledge, too. Each have done it there own way, but all follow a similar path from what I have learned. I don't know half of what these guys do, but I try to practice and share what I have been told. Good luck!

stud dogs are a dime a dozen , finding a female worth breeding has always been my biggest problem , that is why I have only raised 3 litters in 40 years ,lol

quote:

---

Originally posted by GES
I sure don't claim to be a breeder, but I have talked at length to some very respected breeders. They gave me the following advice:

1) Research bloodlines and find a stud that has good/great littermates from that bloodline that might compliment your female.
2) Breed for purpose beyond having a pup from your dog.
3) Find a stud from that bloodline that is highly intelligent and capable of learning things beyond treeing coon.
4) Actually HUNT with the stud and see if you like him and what he does in the woods.
5) hunt with offspring, nieces, Nephew, uncle, sire, dam, or other similar bred dogs and see if you like them and if they are similar to the potential stud.
6) Know the person behind the dog. Was he trained and raised by one man or passed around? Is the owner the breeder of the stud or did they buy him for a 'stud' dog? Are they a good person you want to do business with or not.
7) Take responsibility for the breeding. If it fails, it is on you and the decision you made. Don't make excuses or pass blame, you'll get due credit if it works.

All of these people made it a point to tell me that they'd had many more failures than successes and all agreed that breeding is as much an art as science. And they all said the only way to truly know is to make the cross and get them in the hands of capable hunters.

Best of luck!

---

__________________
Eric DePue
Hill Country Kennels Itty-Bitty
PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

Foundation stock but with faults

[QUOTE]Originally posted by novicane65
[B]#4 Is a big thing. There's a lot of guys that own a "stud" that won't cut them loose. They say they're too valuable to lose. So if I was choosing a stud to breed to I'd pass all day on those.


I'm going to disagree on that under one condition. I have no problem if they say he's to valuable to cut loose, if they have a minimum of two dogs out of him and different females that they are happy to show off. I'd not just breed to him without alot more research like talk to reliable people who hunted with him, check out his littermates, check out and research what they've been crossed on and how their pups turned out, plus if want to hunt with more pups out of him. Like some say you're not getting him but what he reproduced.

But in thinking about it I believe there is a difference between making a cross to throw coondogs, and making crosses to throw foundation stock. Some crosses may throw outstanding winning coonhounds but something back in the third or fourth generation may come up that would eliminate them from being what I consider breeding stock. Might be their parents didn't show any signs of that trait, and may be a trait that doesn't mean they can't hunt and win but isn't something you'd be interested in putting into your line and dealing with forever. My opinion is many people have invested time into their hound and believe they are good enough to breed regardless of the faults they have. And do breed them, and those pups get bred and so on. Now you go hunting with a stud and it beats your female. Shows no signs of said faults but after investigating you learn it pass those faults on in his pups.
So I guess I'm asking do most breed looking at just the cross at hand or do you breed with the Hope of making foundation stock? How many research as much as possible and learn all they can, verses how many breed to the big name to sell pups quick? I know either way you can and have been coondogs reproduced. If you were looking at stud dogs How much research do you do and what questions do you ask the owner?

My deacon dog was the only one in the litter that turned out do you think maybe he got the whole litters ability’s ?

I never refused to hunt him or bozz with anybody matter of fact the guys used to borrow them to take to hunts because they would hunt the same for anybody.


Tar