UKC Forums - What should it take to be a grand nite champion?

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-- What should it take to be a grand nite champion? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928516128)

Posted by KYHoundDawg on 03-02-2019 12:00 AM:

What should it take to be a grand nite champion?

I have been listening to more complaints than usual about how easy it is to grand a dog. I’ve even heard people say they are never going to hunt in Ukc anymore due to the recent changes. To each his own and every kennel club is not for everybody. But I do not think I’ve heard very many people describe what they think it should take to be a grand night? Maybe I missed it? I do not think for one that there is a perfect way. You are always going to have dogs that make it and shouldn’t and those that should that don’t make it for one reason or the other. I am not one to get philosophical although I did sit in a philosophy class in college because of a good-looking girl, but what would be the best way to prove a dog should be a grand night? Should you have to win a major event? Was the old way the best way? We’re longer hunts the best way? I like a good debate and I’m not trying to trash anybody’s thoughts or opinions but at the end of the day should we just shut up and hunt? If the argument is too many grand nights are being bred just for titles it is the breeders responsibility not anyone else in my opinion. I will try to grand dogs I feel are worthy however UKC sees fit and support my local club regardless because I feel that this sport is an important one rich with tradition. So, What is your thought on what should constitute a grand night?

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-02-2019 12:13 AM:

I am waiting to see how it turns out the grntchs hunting against the ntchs I noticed at the major hunts they are still giving placements. I liked back in the day having non hunting judges as you move up in the champion classes it's a disadvantage to judge and call your dog and keep the peace between handlers.

Tar

Posted by nitehunter2004 on 03-02-2019 12:36 AM:

Win 13 cast with plus points under the rules that are set by UKC, pretty simple.

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-02-2019 12:53 AM:

I can do it in 11.

Tar

Posted by nitehunter2004 on 03-02-2019 12:58 AM:

Last year I did it in 8.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-02-2019 01:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nitehunter2004
Last year I did it in 8.

Always got to one up me lol.

Tar

Posted by nitehunter2004 on 03-02-2019 01:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Always got to one up me lol.

Tar

Hey Just change the rules again.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-02-2019 01:16 AM:

I ain't got nothing to do with that !! You know who did that !! They make me pay a fee to talk on here lol.

Tar

Posted by Dave Richards on 03-02-2019 01:35 AM:

Tar

You are getting a bargain at any price! Lol. Dave

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-02-2019 01:44 AM:

Lol I know ! I am just ready for warm weather.

Tar

Posted by Clif Owen on 03-02-2019 02:18 AM:

If everyone is that dead set on making it tougher; maybe they should look at something like they do for the retrievers. To make Grand Hunting Retriever Ch. a dog must accumulate 200 Championship points after it makes Ch. It is also required to have 2 passes (they don't compete against each other but rather against a standard) at a hunt which is called a Grand. There are only 2 of these a year, one in spring and another in the fall. A dog is required to already be a Champion to even qualify. I think only about 5 to 10% of the dogs make it through all 5 days. They could require a Nite Ch. degree to enter and only host 2 or 3 of these hunts per year.

That should really give y'all something to debate. And NO, I don't really think it needs to become the standard. Just a debate to show that it could be made tough enough that very few dogs would ever make it.

Posted by Blaine Stout on 03-02-2019 03:57 AM:

I've always thought that way back when ole Joe and Sam both had hounds. One night Joe said I guarentee my dog can out run your dog on a coon. So Joe and Sam went to the timber to see who could out run who. In the old days they didnt want a dog that would split a mile deep to burn up hunting time. They wanted a dog that could push a track faster than the others and get to the tree first. I love going to comp hunts I go to as many in a year as I can make. If I grand my dog great if I dont fine. I go because I love to hunt with other people and listen to storys at the clubhouses. I even attend when i dont have a dog to hunt and find a cast to spectate on. Grand night is just a title it dont make them a coondog.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-02-2019 01:13 PM:

Why does everyone want to make it harder for a dog to make Gr Nt Ch? Why do they want to limit the number of Gr Nt Ch's? Why do y'all want to try to force someone to go to more hunts to make their dog a Gr Nt Ch? Does winning 8 casts make one dog better than one that wins 5 casts? Or does it only mean it's owner had the time and money to go to more hunts? At what point will most hunters start saying that it isn't worth it and quit and not even try to make their dog a Gr Nt?

Posted by Dogwhisper on 03-02-2019 02:24 PM:

I call it creative accounting. JMO.

Posted by nitehunter2004 on 03-02-2019 02:33 PM:

Asking for a friend, he had a young Female with 5 cast wins but no 1st. She got killed on the road in December will she be a NtCh after Jan 1st 2019?

Posted by yadkintar on 03-02-2019 02:43 PM:

If he never sent the papers in as dead yep !!

Tar

Posted by JiM on 03-02-2019 02:56 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why does everyone want to make it harder for a dog to make Gr Nt Ch? Why do they want to limit the number of Gr Nt Ch's? Why do y'all want to try to force someone to go to more hunts to make their dog a Gr Nt Ch? Does winning 8 casts make one dog better than one that wins 5 casts? Or does it only mean it's owner had the time and money to go to more hunts? At what point will most hunters start saying that it isn't worth it and quit and not even try to make their dog a Gr Nt? [/QUOTE

Oh come on Richard, anyone who gives up on titling a dog in UKC today either didn't have much dog to start with or has very little, if any, determination. It is easier to Grand a dog today than ever in the history of UKC. Heck, you can't even win a hunt anymore, it's just cast wins. The emphasis on WINNING has been replaced by the 1 in 4 chance to beat three dogs.
Titles have become less prestigious than ever, to the point where the only one who cares if a dog titles is the dogs owner.
Cliff Owens post about the bird dog titles makes a lot of sense to me. UKC should have developed a title that wasn't just about racking up a high number of cheap and easy cast wins, but a title that was tough enough that only a small percentage of the best would be capable of achieving it.
But of course UKC would never go for such a tough challenge because so few have enough dog and so few are willing to accept such a tough challenge that it would not be profitable. And of course profit is always the main thing.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-02-2019 03:06 PM:

Jim, are you actually saying that it is "easy" to beat 3 other dogs who are trying just as hard as you are to title their dog 13 times? Do you really think that they are all just going to let you win? If only a small percentage of the very best can obtain that title, then how many hunters do you think will even attempt it? And if only a small percentage attempt it, will they really be the "best"? Or will they be the ones who's owners have the time and money to attempt it? Won't making it harder exclude a lot of the dogs and handlers from even attempting? Won't that cut way back on entries?

Posted by OLD TIMER on 03-02-2019 03:16 PM:

Getting like Youth Sports—

You get a Trophy for each time you participate in a hunt and after so many hunts you trade them in for a Title?

Maybe that’s the next rule change. After almost 65 years of following hounds I have yet to hunt with a hound who knows they are Titled, which is nice but the problem is the handler sure will let you know!! So I guess in a normal night of hunting——if I don’t know, the hound doesn’t know and the coon doesn’t care—will the hunt end any different?

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-02-2019 03:39 PM:

Isn't all of this pure speculation? Does anyone really know how the new format changes will affect the number or quality of titled dogs? Weren't there already a number of Gr Nt Ch dogs that didn't deserve that title? And whether there were too little or too many is a matter of personal opinion. Actually, unless someone has a Crystal ball we don't really know how the changes will effect the number or quality of titled dogs.

Posted by JiM on 03-02-2019 04:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Jim, are you actually saying that it is "easy" to beat 3 other dogs who are trying just as hard as you are to title their dog 13 times? Do you really think that they are all just going to let you win? If only a small percentage of the very best can obtain that title, then how many hunters do you think will even attempt it? And if only a small percentage attempt it, will they really be the "best"? Or will they be the ones who's owners have the time and money to attempt it? Won't making it harder exclude a lot of the dogs and handlers from even attempting? Won't that cut way back on entries?

Yes Richard, I'm saying straight out, plain as can be, that it is much easier to beat 3 dogs, 8 times, than it is to beat every dog in the Ch hunt 5 times.
Simple example. Last night at Wyatt, 8 dogs in the Ch hunt. Two of them got wins toward Grand. Last year, 8 dogs in the Ch hunt, one of them gets a win toward Grand. Making it exactly twice as easy to get that win toward Grand.
I can't understand how you don't get it that beating 3 dogs in a cast is very much easier than beating every dog in the Ch hunt. I"m saying 8 cast wins is very much easier than getting 5 Ch hunt wins.

And if only a very few attempt to achieve a very difficult title level, does that make it eadier to achieve? No, I don't think it does. Would it be less profitable for UKC? Certainly.

Posted by JiM on 03-02-2019 04:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Isn't all of this pure speculation? Does anyone really know how the new format changes will affect the number or quality of titled dogs? Weren't there already a number of Gr Nt Ch dogs that didn't deserve that title? And whether there were too little or too many is a matter of personal opinion. Actually, unless someone has a Crystal ball we don't really know how the changes will effect the number or quality of titled dogs.

Yes, there were already a number of GrNtCh dogs that didn't deserve the title. Now there will be more. I don't need to wait and see to figure that out.

I understand that the new title format was developed in an effort to increase participation (entries). Make everything easier, the new generation is more likely to play.

Posted by yadkintar on 03-02-2019 05:59 PM:

Dang Jim you up and went and made me proud of you !

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-02-2019 06:18 PM:

In the past, winning the Champion class just meant that you were lucky enough to draw the best guide. It had nothing to do with the best dog. I thought that changing the format was done to take the guide advantage and plusing all of the circle trees out of nite hunts. I didn't realize that it was done to make titles easier to obtain.

Posted by nitehunter2004 on 03-02-2019 06:22 PM:

Tar didn’t you push an push for this? You even complained when the rules changed to cast winners, said UKC only did that to cut back on paper work.

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