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-- Here's one to think about (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928512188)

Here's one to think about

Here is the scenario: 4 dog Nite Ch. cast...non hunting judge. Towards the end of hunt, 1 dog trees by himself across some floodwaters. The cast is walking in that direction when they hit the logging road they need to walk out on. Judge offers to let rest of cast stay there and he will go with the handler of treed dog. So, they wait there. (Also, this ensures they don't lose the road). Anyway, evidently while the judge and handler are wading; the dog moves. It is very obvious to the rest of cast but the handler and judge don't realize it. Long story short...they return and a comment was made about it being a shame he moved. Judge asks the rest of cast if he really moved. They all answer yes. I'm not sure exactly what the judge did but evidently, he minused the dog for leaving the tree. On reflection, I don't exactly agree with his choice. Yes, the dog moved but he had no idea. And I also feel that if he did, he should have retreed the dog and scored it however it required. (No idea if they saw the coon but if so, it may have changed outcome). Also, should have put a question mark and let MOH listen to question.
What would you have done in this situation? Both as judge and one of the 3 handlers waiting. Before you start; yes, we should have all gone but it was end of hunt and 2 of us were beat regardless of scoring. And the judge was only person that actually had to see coon to score it.

End of hunt

And two were already beat have nothing to do with it. Took 3 folks to holler 2 out? 😂 Following the rules Stop these things like this from happening.When rules aren't followed,we all know whats going on!

If the hunt is over and you have a non hunting judge, it only takes him to score a tree so it doesn't matter if other 3 go or not. If judge thinks the dog moved, he should minus him. It is up to the non hunting judge.

what would i have done .....hmmmmm
all cast members would of went to the tree , and it would of been scored accordingly.
as one of the 3 other cast members i would of went with the non-hunting judge and the handler . I wouldn't of stayed behind even if i was beat !
Being the end of hunt and being beat is irrelevant.
To me it's trying to justify the casts violateing several rules !

Exactly

If people can't walk to trees or follow the rules, then stay on the porch and internet hunt. If my memory, serves me correct, a similar situation cost young man his life in a hunt a few years back. Just stop participating and leave everbody if they can't win. Seen it more than once, myself. Big Wig Pro's,

Do ball players, race car drivers, etc quit when they can't win? Only in competition hunting! If they don't like to competion coohunt unless they win by following the rules. Stay their tired " " selfish selves on the porch.Be nice now! No wonder things look so bleek for coonhuntg. Do they go to their dog when it trees at home, or just leave it?
Have a great day!

I've sat back and watched this scenario before answering. First and foremost, NON HUNTING JUDGE. No one else in the cast needs to score the tree. If you don't trust the judge, go to the tree, otherwise stay on the road. If the dog moved and the judge did not catch it, score one for the dog. The remaining cast members were correct to tell the judge they though the dog moved BUT they could also be lying (I'm not saying they did). If what they told the judge consides with what he felt did happen then minus the dog. While wading water to get to the dog it would be easy to miss a dog moving a short distance. Then again a dog often sounds like it moved when all it did was get on the back side of a big tree. I was not there. To make a good ruling on this you need information as to how deep was the dog? How close to the dog were the judge and handler when the cast said the dog moved? What were the conditions on the way to the dog, etc?

I feel the judge should listen to what all cast members say but the decision is his to make. You as a cast member can always put a question on the card.

__________________
Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Suppose the dog never moved, but the cast members standing in the road got to discussing and decided to see if they could screw the guy going to get his dog?

Non-hunting Judge's call, and he sure shouldn't change how he scored the tree after the hunt because someone standing in the road behind him says so...

If I'm the judge in this scenario and I DIDN't KNOW/COULDN'T TELL the dog moved, I leave the tree as I scored it when I got there. It is my responsibility "as the judge" to decide when a dog moves and when it doesn't. If the dog moved and I know it moved IT IS MINUSED. If cannot tell if a dog moved, it then get the benefit of the doubt. You see, It is not fair to punish/minus a dog for what you think it MAY have done, you should only punish/minus the dog when you KNOW it has done something that is against the rules.

Now if I'm the handler of that dog that is being scored, I call the three handlers that were too lazy to go score the tree, a bunch of cry babies. You see, if they didn't have the integrity to complete the cast, and go score that final tree, they had no business being that back seat driver, when the judge had done all he could do to score it fairly under the conditions provided.

Now if I'm the handler of one of the three dogs, sitting on that road, I shake the mans hand, congratulate him for what his dog was able to do, and hope for a better night the next time out.

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Dave Mayles
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.

One thing I learned a long time ago. The guys at the truck most of the time have a different opinion of what happened from the guys going through the woods.
Like Bill said. The judge made his ruling right or wrong.

If I was the judge. Not to score with as the scoring was over with. But I would of loved to looked at someones Garmin just to see how I might have messed up.

I have seen many situations that the judge doing the best he could and being honest got into a situation that it was scored wrong. I have been at the truck and the cast is several hundred yards in the woods. The dogs treed out ahead of them but was perpendicular to my position. Me and another guy heard that dog drift deeper and the cast thought he did. But walking in water and other dogs barking saved him and he wasn't misused for leaving the tree. Just part of the game. Do the best you can and be honest about it. Win some and loose some.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

He shouldn't have changed his call. Non-hunting judges can only be overturned by a MOH or panel, there is no vote in the woods. If the cast had disagreed with the judge they could have placed a question on the card to be heard at the club house. The only person needed to score that tree is the non-hunting judge only he can determine if a dog moved or not and only he needs to see a coon or not. Non-hunting judges can be overturned by MOH and panels for rules violations and improper procedures but judgement calls like dogs moving will not be overturned, just like the scoring of trees will not be overturned. The man who's dog was minused should have questioned the change, the judge made the wrong call by his change.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
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RIP
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*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

A non hunting judge makes the decision on scoring a tree. When you score a tree and leave it with no question, done deal.

__________________
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The handler of the dog that moved had to know that he moved. All he had to do was look at his Garmin. I wonder if maybe he told the judge to minus his dog? That would have been the right thing to do.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
The handler of the dog that moved had to know that he moved. All he had to do was look at his Garmin. I wonder if maybe he told the judge to minus his dog? That would have been the right thing to do.

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__________________
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I used mine Fri night to tell the judge to minus my dog because she moved over. Do the rules prohibit me from doing that? Should I have kept my mouth shut?

Richard!

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I used mine Fri night to tell the judge to minus my dog because she moved over. Do the rules prohibit me from doing that? Should I have kept my mouth shut?

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__________________
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DOB- 9/30/2017

Re: Richard!

quote:

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Originally posted by TylerOSU
.... I always shake my head at those guys...

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Re: Re: Richard!

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why??? If your dog moves or leaves a tree, they are supposed to be minused aren't they? I shake my head when a handler argues that you can't tell if his dog moved and won't look at his Garmin because it will show that he moved.

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__________________
It's all about preventative judging and situational handling that keeps you out of trouble.
Owner of TIER 1 CUSTOM CALLS
POWERED BY PURINA

Team Mafia
2022 UKC World Champion
2019-2022 UKC World Qualifier
2019 Ok Prohunt Semi-finalist
2019 Spring SS Top 20
20,21, and 23 OK State PKC Champion
2020 Spring SS Top 7
2019-2023 PKC National Qualifier
2020-2023 TOC Qualifier
2020 UKC Top 100
2022 UKC Top 100
2023 JOY Super Hunt Champion
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DOB- 9/30/2017

Handlers lie, Garmins don't.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I used mine Fri night to tell the judge to minus my dog because she moved over. Do the rules prohibit me from doing that? Should I have kept my mouth shut?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Handlers lie, Garmins don't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Hennessey
This is not. true. I hunt in some very hilly country and many times when my dog is going up a steep hill my garmin shows her treed. Also if my dog is treed (shows on Garmin) and another dog crowds her she will step down and move to the other side of tree ( Garmin shows off tree) but she is not more then about 5 feet away from base of tree. Garmins lie just like handlers.

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__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER, 2025 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

Mr Hennessey, not sure but it sounds like you don't understand how a Garmin works. The old beep beeps would show "treed" when a dog had it's head pointed up. The Garmin shows treed when a dog is not moving. If a dog just stands still the Garmin will show it treed. Dog's head position has nothing to do with it.
As I said, the Garmin doesn't lie but sometimes handlers don't realize what it is telling them. And sometimes they know but don't want to admit it. That is when they start quoting the rule about not using your Garmin to score a dog.

"The rules say that you can't use your Garmin to score a dog" is coonhunters slang for, "I know my dog should be minused but I am not going to admit it".

Mr. Lambert

Oh. My Goodness, surely you don't believe this, or do you? An honest handler should minus his dog on what the handler knows his dog has done, you are advocating that a handler should use the Garmin to do something that he/she can not do without the Garmin! You know that is against the RULES period. One should neither gain nor lose anything based on a tool [ Garmin ], scoring dog/s should be in a manner that the majority of the cast can agree on, not something that is exclusive to a particular handler. Like it or not, RULES are RULES, we can not pick and choose which ones we are going to enforce. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

I'd scratched the whole cast and that guy would be done judging at our club.

Dave, that sounds just like what a slick handler/lawyer would say. I bet that you were a heck of a handler back in your day.