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-- Now the Statement That Should Make you Stop Breeding! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928467493)

Now the Statement That Should Make you Stop Breeding!

I think one thing I might over look is, why do people actually breed coon dogs? My thoughts are to produce coonhound to hunt and title in UKC. If your one of those people then lets look at the results.
Go to the top producers page and only the top producers are getting 15% or better results with their pups earning a title.
One Walker is at 22% but overall most of the dogs are closer to 10%. What does that mean.

That means if you have 10 pups and as you look at them. 1 or 2 at the most will earn a degree. Should we really be proud of that number. I have noticed the numbers are edging up but I don't think thats dog power but a lot of hunts with low entries.

Again 1 or 2 pups out of a litter making a hunt degree that many don't feel is to hard to earn. What are we doing.

We all take pretty pictures, trap coons for them to bark at, rub a hotdog on a tree for more pictures. I like them pictures just like the rest of you do. But really, then what happens.
You tell me, because the results I read about show they ain't treeing coon.

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Yadkintars going to fan the flames ok wait for it !! Wait for it!! Wait for it !! Ok in the $$$ hunts they don't have to tree a coon the same dogs that have low percentages in ukc for titled pups are winning millions in the $$$ hunts oooooops there it is waaaaabam !!

They can say want they want but the ukc reproducers list is why there is a problem with accuracy in our hounds. A hound that throws a high percentage of tree dogs makes it easy for the overall public to be able to win a few cast. I've heard people say the $$$ hunts are the problem but I disagree. as long as the titles are easy to get then we set our standards to low in the breeding pen To many titles are earned in people's back yard. Most people that coonhunt and breed have no clue as to what you need to have an Elite compitition hound.

.

Tar you killing me. lol I will let the others handle you on this one. Nate didn't your dog just finish 2nd in AL state $ hunt. Congrats

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What about the ones

That never see a hunt, never entered, hit by a car, culled, stolen and papered under another hound?

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I know in the Bluetick breed it is hard to get a high percentage of pups into competition hunters hands. They can't win if they aren't entered. I wonder how many pups out of a 100 pups dies young, doesn't get hunted at all, gets ruined, don't go to a competition hunter, gets turned into a pet, etc. If we could eliminate the owner's affect out of the equation then we would be able to accurately judge the reproducing ability of different studs. Also another big part of the studs percentages are what quality of females are being bred to them. I know in the Bluetick breed when dealing with a small sample number, because most studs don't throw hundreds of pups, one female could give one stud an edge over another stud by a few percentage points. Now once a male dog gets up around 500 pups I think the percentages can be used more effectively on determining if they are reproducing competition dogs or not.

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Nate I saw you was logged in when I wrote that lol! I knew you would respond lol!!

The fact is there aren't near enough serious hunters. There are hundreds of pups born every day and not a fraction of people to hunt them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
The fact is there aren't near enough serious hunters. There are hundreds of pups born every day and not a fraction of people to hunt them.

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Here's were I am at. I studed deacon and bozz at the same time bought several top notch females super staked and performanced both studs because people would tell me I will not breed or buy a pup if they are not paid up both ways those would be the same people that when that pup was over a year old they would try and sell it back to me still with pup papers , wormy , mangy, did not know nothing but bark and walk in their own dookie. Unless you are needing a tax write off its not worth it nobody respects the effort , time and money it takes to be a breeder and I would get them started and treeing coons price them reasonable and they would want to hunt with them for two weeks then tell you when I get some money I would like to have that dog never again will I ever have a stud dog ever !!

10% are never permanently registered
50% either ain't worth a bullet or get ruined by trainer
20-30%are good enough but never get to the hunts
The other 10-20% get titled

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Bruce,I use the penny method. Ole Shep has sired 1600 pups.160 titled out. So take 1600 penny's put them in a pile,pull 160 out,now look at the piles.... one pile is a lot bigger. If a dog puts that many on the ground for whatever reason,and only reproduces at 10% is he really reproducing at a high level.

Ill take the dog that has 20 pups on the ground with two titled and more with wins the the 1600 pup dog any day..

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Bruce, I agree too many factors.
How many actually competion hunt? Not many in my area.
Then I think about the last several litters, what happened to them? Like Carder said, run over, never entered, bred at 9 months old, so on and so on.
Sure hurts your feelings as a breeder when you see those two or three that get a chance make excellent coondogs, then think if the rest could have had a chance.
Some people like to collect pups like match box cars and leave them sitting on the shelf

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Re: Now the Statement That Should Make you Stop Breeding!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I think one thing I might over look is, why do people actually breed coon dogs? My thoughts are to produce coonhound to hunt and title in UKC. If your one of those people then lets look at the results.
Go to the top producers page and only the top producers are getting 15% or better results with their pups earning a title.
One Walker is at 22% but overall most of the dogs are closer to 10%. What does that mean.

That means if you have 10 pups and as you look at them. 1 or 2 at the most will earn a degree. Should we really be proud of that number. I have noticed the numbers are edging up but I don't think thats dog power but a lot of hunts with low entries.

Again 1 or 2 pups out of a litter making a hunt degree that many don't feel is to hard to earn. What are we doing.

We all take pretty pictures, trap coons for them to bark at, rub a hotdog on a tree for more pictures. I like them pictures just like the rest of you do. But really, then what happens.
You tell me, because the results I read about show they ain't treeing coon.

---

What if you ---

only breed to make the buyer of your product HAPPy--- Not a scorecard and see things in trees that aren't there or are there?

The last litter I raised, out of 6 pups, one was culled. The rest have made their owners happy. Would I have liked to seen all 6 make it? Sure, but I have gotten enough pups from other kennels myself and sold enough to know that a 100% every time doesn't always happen.

Then you have to remember that not every hunter is going to grade a hound the same or hunt the same. The back of the "magazine" ?? Not sure how you can even start to think of grading a reproducer off of that---

Don't care who you are or what breed you hunt, if you raise a litter of pups that don't go to comp hunters, but go to hunters that hunt hard in the fall and judge a hound on nose, voice, handling, checking the tree, looks and being straight/easy to train and you can please them. DON'T CHANGE YOUR PROGRAM.

I feel that the Greatest Breeders from the Past and the Present didn't look at any list, but hunted what they liked and bred what they hunted.

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Mr. Conkey

After reading many of your posts for the past couple of months I'm starting to think you may have picked up some sort of virus from this coon hunting website, lol. You sound a little like the press that covered this nations most recent election.

I, like another fellow on here, breed to satisfy myself. Now I seen that you had thrown out several statistics about percentages. My line of dogs is much like every other dogs percentages so why do I settle for 10% success, you may ask.

Let me just say, I raise a litter when I need a replacement. I find it interesting that the pup I keep usually turns out being titled while others in the same litter usually end up in the hands of hide/pleasure hunters, and maybe only entered in one to three hunts in their life. Why is this, you may ask? Well that is because I never was lucky enough nor devoted enough to make my kennel nationally recognized. I hunt for the fun of coon hunting and then about 8-10 times a year I take my little unknown soldier to town, and occasionally to the big dance to see how mine stacks up against all those magazine power houses. Not only am I that way but many coon hunters in my area do not feel the need to go compete against the comp hunters. They just do not have that competitive nature about them that is required to title out a hound in competition.

So to use titles as the standard for determining the quality of a coon hound is like using lumens to determine the accuracy of your dog. Untill you point the light in the right direction, it doesn't matter how bright that light is.

Don't mean to come off snotty, but some of your posts are starting to make me question the amount of sleep you may be getting, LOL. Good hunting!

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Lots of pleasure hunters out there is the main reason reproducer list % is low. From my own experience i know of several dogs that have wins that have been sold to pleasure hunters and will never be finished and mine is at #2 last I looked. I never bred Mafia to make a list never charged a dime other than a pup it kept me always having something young to hunt. I've been blessed with him and his reproducing what I like. For anyone that breeds coonhounds all you can hope for is that they reproduce what you and others enjoy hunting and that your dogs pups stay in hunters hands in the woods not in somebodies kennel. Worry about the % of happy owners not the ones in the back of a magazine.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Lots of pleasure hunters out there is the main reason reproducer list % is low. From my own experience i know of several dogs that have wins that have been sold to pleasure hunters and will never be finished and mine is at #2 last I looked. I never bred Mafia to make a list never charged a dime other than a pup it kept me always having something young to hunt. I've been blessed with him and his reproducing what I like. For anyone that breeds coonhounds all you can hope for is that they reproduce what you and others enjoy hunting and that your dogs pups stay in hunters hands in the woods not in somebodies kennel. Worry about the % of happy owners not the ones in the back of a magazine.

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Just like to back up what Cheyenne said. Have had two Mafia pups. Let one go to a guy who put her in the hunts and made a nite champ I think with 3 first place wins and she might have been 10-11 months old when she made nt champ. Have one now that is the same quality but he's not going anywhere. Not likely that he will ever be in a hunt but he is making a coon dog that will make me happy. Won't ever show up in the percentage race.

__________________
Tom Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Yadkintars going to fan the flames ok wait for it !! Wait for it!! Wait for it !! Ok in the $$$ hunts they don't have to tree a coon the same dogs that have low percentages in ukc for titled pups are winning millions in the $$$ hunts oooooops there it is waaaaabam !!

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Not mad you are always going to have difference of opinion major $$$ hunts yes the big winners tree coons. On the local level you would not believe what they win with somtimes but that adds up. You got to look at the big picture if a stud has a lot of pups $50 here and $50 there all over the USA adds up then one pup wins a big one it looks better than what it is. I hunt in both I have won $$$ hunts without treeing a coon I have won by keeping my mouth shut at the right time but I have never even on the local level won a ukc hunt without treeing a coon. What ever game you like to play they have rules as long as you go by them take the money and run but this old man still sayes the $$$ hunts have changed our dogs. dogs are winning $$$ with faults that they would have got shot for years ago jmo.

.

I agree with what all of you said about breeding for your own purpose and dogs never getting to the hunts. Heck I just had a litter of 10 here that 2 went to some very good young people and the others just to some fine pleasure hunters.

Redneck is the only only that talked about mixing and matching both for pleasure hunters and comp hunters.
That will hurt the percentages of a male because it is on the list.

Those of you that all your dogs go to just good homes and good coonhunters will never affect the percentages on the list.

This dogs on the list are the ones some serious people are pushing and the best then can do is 10%

Rocketman I just love to hear people opinions on coon hound subjects. I have found you don't generally get the best information out of people unless you challenge them a little. Kind of like the wife, she cleans house a lot faster after I get under her skin. If I do nothing but buy her flowers and scented candles, she just sits around looking at them.

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If it were not for Bruce we would all be staring at the flower's, you go big fella Kick us in the teeth lol
Just be easy on my dogs i am sensitive....not!
If a man will listen to some of these guy's they can save a ton of money and years wasted.
Those that know it all, Good for you

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Re: .

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
I agree with what all of you said about breeding for your own purpose and dogs never getting to the hunts. Heck I just had a litter of 10 here that 2 went to some very good young people and the others just to some fine pleasure hunters.

Redneck is the only only that talked about mixing and matching both for pleasure hunters and comp hunters.
That will hurt the percentages of a male because it is on the list.

Those of you that all your dogs go to just good homes and good coonhunters will never affect the percentages on the list.

This dogs on the list are the ones some serious people are pushing and the best then can do is 10%

Rocketman I just love to hear people opinions on coon hound subjects. I have found you don't generally get the best information out of people unless you challenge them a little. Kind of like the wife, she cleans house a lot faster after I get under her skin. If I do nothing but buy her flowers and scented candles, she just sits around looking at them.

---

.

novicane I am not sure I would put myself on that list of breeding to better anything.

I have been studying the other guys breeding 50 years.
Just the past 3 years I decided to breed a couple females I have around here. I want to see if the things the others talk about actually happen.

I haven't got there yet but one of my next questions on here with be "What are your goals when you breed"

Been trying build up to that one. lol

I can tell you my goals and they are simple.

My goal is to supply the person who gets a pup from me one that will bring it genetics to the table and make it easy for that person to train. A pup that excites the person and gives the person the feeling it has something to work with. Unfortunately the environment side usually kicks in about then and like mentioned. A lot of the pups don't get a chance. I am also learning that these dogs even though you think they should be, are not suited for all locations and all people. Some young dogs go to several places before someone figures out how to put the polish on them and make them shine.

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