UKC Forums - The All Grand debate

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 07-29-2016 03:32 PM:

The All Grand debate

I hope I'm not digging up a dead horse here but I have not seen a discussion concerning all grand redbones. I'm just curious if enough 3 generation + all grand redbones exist to provide an opinion on their increased/decreased/indifferent level of success.

It was during my break from the competition world when the all grand walkers hit the scene with abundance so when I broke back into things they were everywhere. As I traveled around and owned a couple I realized it didn't mean much of anything "off paper", I grew to not expect anything more than the lineage may have provided otherwise. But I often wondered if early on it was a better indicator, when to line up a sire and dam to make an all grand litter they were most likely very linebred. Linebred I like, it provides to me a much higher likelihood of what to expect. You hear all the dang time how so-and-so dog was "papered" a GRNT, but I can't believe at this point it's really all that easy to paper a redbone anything, especially 3 generations of it.

Anyhow, since the pool is smaller, can anyone say it is more or less an indication of a better litter?

Posted by HOBO on 07-29-2016 06:53 PM:

Not a Redbone man BUT, I have never put much into the all grand pedigrees.... Those titles are only as good as the man behind the dog. If you don't know the dog or the man they mean squat

__________________
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Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss

Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 07-29-2016 07:22 PM:

ALL GRAND

Well on paper it looks real cool, and yes I do have an All Grand 3 gen dog, he's only a Nt ch. but still I feel that he could be Granded out.
But here's what I believe, lots of dogs that are Grand are made by the handlers, some honest and some really slick. So this ''All Grand'' pedigree can be good, but lots of times there may be a dog or two or more, that was made by the handlers. It's best to look at the whole picture and see if the dogs in a pedigree are from families of coondogs. in other words what were the littermates of each dog in the pedigree that was given a fair chance, did they make good coondogs.
Now I'm a senior --65 years old-- and can't hunt like I used to and so I don't push my dogs in the comp hunts. and I refuse to let just anyone take my dogs to try to win as I want them to win fairly. not by a slick handler. so bottom line these all grand pedigrees look great, but do some research before you decide to try the all grand band wagon--lol

__________________
Herschel Burt

hershtwo@yahoo.com
Life member NRA
Current dogs
GR CH NT CH RED MIGHTY 90-Bo/Sierra
NT.CH.GR CH BEYOND BILLY HTX --Billy the Kid/ Amber
GR CH 1ST & 2ND place wins 90/4 LIFE GUN-HTX==-Willy BOY/Bigtime Britt
Dogs I have owned
Nt ch Gr ch HERSHS HUNTIN RED IKE
NT CH CH HERSHS HUNTIN BUDDY
GR NT CH MILLERS DIRTY RED
NT CH CH LYNN'S CREEK JULIE
GR CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED KATE
CH NITE CH AMBRAW RIVER TIMBER ROCK
NT CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED CLEM
NT CH ROCKY TOP CHERRY

Posted by Roger Hall on 07-29-2016 09:30 PM:

Out standing Responds

Hersh, I could not of put it any better.

__________________
RAGGED RIDGE REDBONES
WORKING WITH THE SAME BLOOD LINE SINCE 1962

WE HAVE PUPS, STARTED AND FINSHED DOGS FROM TIME to TIME

2014 (2nd Place) Youth World Champion
UKC Grand Ch. Grand Nite Ch. Ragged Ridge Rip

UKC Gr.NiteCh. Ragged Ridge Toadie
2015 Youth World Champion
2013 Youth World Champion
2015 National Redbone Days Champion
2013 National Redbone Days Op. Sex Ch.
2012 Autumn Oaks High Sc. Redbone Female
2014 AKC IN. State Ch.
2014 AKC IN. State Youth Ch.
UKC Nite Ch. Ragged Ridge Katie Kate

R.I.P. Dual Grand Champion Ragged Ridge CD
2002 World Champion Redbone 8th Place
Current #1 Reproducer before he died.

R.I.P. Ragged Ridge Jynx
UKC Nite Ch.
AKC Senior Retired Gr. Nite Ch.
2004 World Champion Redbone (3rd place)

Roger Hall1-740-655-2394
e-mail= acoonhunter1@hotmail.com
Brent Posey1-614-309-5092
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Keith Bowling 1-812-525-1223

Posted by Adam Wingler on 07-30-2016 01:34 AM:

Thanks Hersh. I'm not on the band wagon, I don't have one nor am I in the market for one in particular. As I mentioned, and Dennis, the all grand fluff in the walker world is just that, fluff, it made no difference with the ones I saw and couple I hunted, and in some cases they were friggin nuts. But of course I wouldn't turn down really good all grand redbone! 😀

But in the redbone world that pool is much smaller, so much so I would like to think it could carry a bit more merit, but maybe not.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-31-2016 12:10 AM:

One of the oldest and possibly the first all Grand redbone crosses was between Dual Grand Outlaw Billy The Kid x Dual Grand Nighty Nite Amber and it has produced several Grand Nite and Nite Champion dogs one of which has won Southern Redbone Days....Twice!
I know there have been others but I believe this was the first for many years after the cross between Outlaw Jesse James x Wright's Little Girl II which produced two Grand Nites ....Jesse James Jr and Outlaw Jack.

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by Adam Wingler on 08-01-2016 03:27 PM:

Thanks Shane.

Also around what Hersh mentions, I realize more than most many a dog is handler made, heck if you've been to enough hunts you've won a couple or more and later thought on that particular night all you had was "the best of the worst".

But I just have yet to see it as rampant in the redbone world. The odds are already tremendously against a redbone winning even a local hunt. I'm also not in the thick of things in my corner of the world, but still yet it's an uphill battle before you ever pull in the clubhouse if you're hauling a redbone.

Posted by jbiggert on 08-02-2016 06:21 PM:

ITS NICE TO HAVE A VERY GOOD HOUND AND A WINNER TO BOOT,BUT ADD GOOD PAPPERS THAT MAKES IT BETTER TO ME.
I LIKE A GOOD HOUND PAPPERED OR NOT. SO why eat a plain pease of cake, if you can have the icing on it.. YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE CAKE THE SAME WAY..(HARD WORK) GOOD LUCK and have fun doing it. (Theres good ones and not so good ones in every litter, all grand or not.)

__________________
John Biggert

Males

1) Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Little Red - (Semen) (Gr. Nt. Yellow River Rocky X Nt. Ch. Gr. F Grw. Maggie)

2) Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Red Cloud - 4 Years Old (Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. To The Max X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

3) Nighty Nite T - (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight After Shock X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

Females

1) Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann - 9 Years Old (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Steps Little Pepper X Gr. Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite Moonlight Kate)

2) Gr. Ch. Nighty Nite Little Red Sky - 3 Years Old (Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Outlaw Red Moon X Gr. Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Moonlight Pepper Ann)

Posted by ahallada on 08-02-2016 08:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Wingler
Thanks Shane.

Also around what Hersh mentions, I realize more than most many a dog is handler made, heck if you've been to enough hunts you've won a couple or more and later thought on that particular night all you had was "the best of the worst".

But I just have yet to see it as rampant in the redbone world. The odds are already tremendously against a redbone winning even a local hunt. I'm also not in the thick of things in my corner of the world, but still yet it's an uphill battle before you ever pull in the clubhouse if you're hauling a redbone.

I guess we come from different parts of the world Adam because I feel just the opposite. When I pull into a hunt with a Redbone I know I am the one to beat. haha

You must not have watched "Where the Red Fern Grows" as much as I did growing up. When I got into competition hunting I just assumed Redbones were supposed to win.

Those All Grand Pedigrees are good in my opinion. Especially when you got a couple of littermates from that cross that turn out to be good dogs and do well in the hunts like JJ Jr. and Outlaw Jack did. It definitely increases the probability of a future cross when breeding to one of these dogs if they are line bred and they have littermates that are good. I believe in breeding a family of coondogs to a family of coondogs. A dog's pedigree is only as good as it's weakest link. If there aren't any holes and that dog's pedigree is filled with big time winners, I think you have a much better chance of producing future winners. You are definitely stacking the odds. JMHO

__________________
Dr. Allen Hallada (Doc Halladay)

Current:

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever
(Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Aftershock x Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Breanna)
2016 Finished to PKC Ch. in one week!

Dual Grand Champion CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Glissens JJ Jr. x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)
4 Generations of All Grand Nite Champions!
Timber Jack 3X and Timber Chopper over 30X
2019 Southern National Redbone Days Champion
2016 National Grand Nite Champion Redbone
2016 CHKC Redbone Days Champion
2016 PKC Super Stakes Reserve Champion
2016 CHKC Elite Shootout Winner - Texas
CHKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

Bodacious
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch.PKC. Gold Ch.CHKC CH. Outlaw G-Man x Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. Classy Cali)

Past:
Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Dawns Timber Jack
1988 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner
1989 UKC World Champion Redbone
1989 Purina Outstanding Redbone Coonhound
#2 Historic Redbone Sire/ Top 20 All Breeds
American Redbone Coonhound Assoc. Hall of Fame

Gr.Nt.Ch. Bussrow Bottom Brandy II
1991 American Redbone Days Champion
1992 AKC World Champion Redbone
1992 ACHA World Champion Redbone
1992 Wisconsin State Champion
1994 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex
Produced 2 Nt. Ch. , 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. out of 2 litters and two Redbone Days Winners

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. PKC Gold Ch. Layton's Classy Cali
2012 UKC World Champion Redbone and 7th Place Overall
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 UKC World Champion Redbone Female
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - Goodsprings, AL
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Series Race - 3rd Place Overall
2016 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - New Albany, MS
2016 PKC Texas State Race Winner
2016 PKC Redbone Breed Race Winner
PKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Coffman's Smokin Red Buck
2016 UKC World Hunt 5th Place and World Champion Redbone
2016 National Redbone Days Overall Winner

Gr.Nt.Ch. Reinhart's Central Page
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Brandy II)

Gr.Nt.Ch. Too the Maxx
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Jenkins Crying Katie)
1992 National Redbone Days Champion

Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Ambraw River Rock
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Hersh's Huntin Red Kate)
1992 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex

Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle
1986 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner

Nt.Ch. Timber Mace
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack X Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle)
Mother of Gr.Nt.Ch. Babb's Hazel

Nt. Ch. Timber Shock
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Jessie)

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Squaw Mountain Goldie
(Direct Daughter of Gr.Nt.Ch.Smokey Mountain Brandy)
1990 Autumn Oaks Best of Show Winner
1988 Indiana State Champion

Posted by Adam Wingler on 08-03-2016 03:09 AM:

Well Doc, redbones are outnumbered here at least 100 to 1, but since I started into them I guess it's now 2, so one could say the odds have doubled. And I'm glad to see you support my notion that an all-grand red pedigree should pack a little more merit than the easy to find ones in tri-color.

And, John, that's a great way to break it down, I agree that despite how big a winner one can be, a good and recognizable pedigree with a bunch of titles sure helps the "looks" of things.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 08-03-2016 07:20 AM:

I think in the end...the redbones that come from all Grand crosses will lift the breed higher. There are really only a handful of lines in the breed who can produce these types of crosses and most of the breeders behind them...and the making of them over the years had no interest in all Grand papers without the all Grand quality and ability to go along with those papers. The majority of the grands you see in any of these all Grand crosses have won big hunts ...and we're consistent winners with lengthy wins to their credit. Rarely do you see a dog from these breeders who was titled out in small hunts and then retired.
Sure...there are a few...but it's hard to be proud of a phony....and most of the dogs that make up all Grand pedigrees in the redbone breed have more than proven themselves...over and over for those who pay attention.
There will always be those who like to bash on all Grand pedigrees and any well bred cross that doesn't produce umpteen big winning Grand nites....but usually...the one saying titles don't mean anything and most titied dogs are made by slick handlers have never titled a dog...or produced a litter where several titled. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...but that doesn't mean everyones opinion is right...
Most good breeders who last very long don't breed for papers...they breed for ability and improvement...and personally I think most of these all Grand pedigreed dogs possess within them a collection of some of the best redbone dna ever mixed together and concentrated in one dog or line of dogs. Does that make it the one and only answer to the redbone puzzle? No...but it does make for a good place to start...or a good option to improve upon what you may already have. Sooner or later...certain breeders will get the right combination and concentration of dna in a dog or line of dogs that will dramatically increase the percentage of offspring that also carry and pass that on to their pups and the breed will make a quantum leap forward...and I bet that dog or line is all Grand or nearly all Grand where most if not all were big hunt winners when it happens....
Good luck everyone

Posted by mmarshall on 08-03-2016 05:27 PM:

How many three gen or better grnt is there in the redbone breed alive I can think of three bj Amber and G I'm shore there more

__________________
mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-03-2016 05:47 PM:

Is anybody actually breeding to obtain an All Grand Pedigree? Or is eveyone just breeding ability to ability and if they get an All Grand Pedigree it just happens. It is so much easier with walker dogs because there are so many more Gr Nts. There are beginning to be a lot more Redbone Gr Nts so you are beginning to see a lot more in the pedigrees. But I don't know of anyone that is just breeding for an all Grand Pedigree now. I remember one Crazy guy that was going to try to a few years back but I don't think that it worked out that well for him although he might have contributed to quite a few of the Gr Nts in pedigrees today.

Posted by Adam Wingler on 08-03-2016 05:50 PM:

Richard, I haven't seen it, obviously it gets mentioned when it happens though. I hope it's as you said, ability to ability with the added perk when it's all grand.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-03-2016 05:58 PM:

There is just one problem when you are breeding Gr Nts X Gr Nts. The pups have to be capable of becoming Gr Nts or it is all for nothing. Sometimes people tend to forget that part of the equation. You can't just look behind, you have to also look ahead.

But in all fairness, I don't have anything capable of producing an All Grand Pedigree so I really shouldn't be commenting. But that has never stopped me before. I did patiently wait a few days however. I am probably just jealous.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 08-03-2016 09:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Is anybody actually breeding to obtain an All Grand Pedigree? Or is eveyone just breeding ability to ability and if they get an All Grand Pedigree it just happens. It is so much easier with walker dogs because there are so many more Gr Nts. There are beginning to be a lot more Redbone Gr Nts so you are beginning to see a lot more in the pedigrees. But I don't know of anyone that is just breeding for an all Grand Pedigree now. I remember one Crazy guy that was going to try to a few years back but I don't think that it worked out that well for him although he might have contributed to quite a few of the Gr Nts in pedigrees today.

Some of my dogs can throw an all Grand pedigree and some can't....but since most of my dogs are either out of Outlaw Billy the Kid or go back to him...and he was the first redbone to make Grand Nite who's parents and all 4 grand parents were grand nites, most of my dogs have all Grand or nearly all Grand pedigrees.
That type of pedigree doesn't guarantee anything....but competition winners stacked upon competition winners 3, 4, or more generations deep has to decrease many of the weak links that keep dogs from being able to win in competition...and if the breeder did a good job matching traits and ability it "should have" concentrated those things increasing the odds of it being passed on to a higher percentage of the offspring.
I don't breed just for all Grand pedigrees... but because most of my dogs are out of or go back to the dogs I started with 25 years ago and I usually keep.and title a few out of the litters I raise....the all Grand part is a by product of mine and others breeding programs who are focused on breeding...and then proving competition redbones.

Posted by Crazy Luke on 08-04-2016 12:17 AM:

Maybe

Third Generation Gr Nt Ratliff's Jon Henry, Gr Nt Guitars Ghost Mississippi, Gr Nt The Coon Buster, Gr Nt Nacalu's Mandy II�Second generation� Some thing to work on�Gr Nt Jon Jr ( Has a first place in his first hunt) Gr Nt Coon Bustin Mandy�About to hit the hunts� Gr Nt Pup�. I guess you could call this a five year plan. I breed for me and don't go to the hunts every weekend. If Jon Jr don't work out there is his brother that is a Nt Ch already in Texas and there is also another brother out there that hopefully someone will put in the hunts. Also working on some other crosses.. Gr Nt Pigeon River Jim and Gr Nt Coffmans Smokin Tess pups coming next week. Also got two off of Jon Jr and Gr Nt Mandy II� Got some work ahead of me and the children are all grown and gone� Lucas.

Posted by ahallada on 08-04-2016 06:22 AM:

***************Grnt Famous Amos
**********Grnt Burning Ben
***************Grnt Millers Betsy
*****Grnt Outlaw jj
***************Grnt Red Oak mike
**********Grnt Outlaw Jessie
***************Grnt Graves Bear Creek Ruby
*****Grnt Glissons Outlaw jj jr
***************Grnt Famous Amos
**********Grnt Burning Ben
***************Grnt Miller's Betsy
*****Grnt Wrights Little Girl II
***************Grnt Timber Jack
**********Grnt Outlaw Timber Girl
***************Grnt Outlaw Jessie
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw G-Man
***************Grnt Famous Amos
**********Grnt Burning Ben
***************Grnt Millers Betsy
******Grnt Outlaw Billy the Kid
***************Grnt Red Oak Mike
**********Grnt Outlaw Jessie
***************Grnt Graves Bear Creek Ruby
*****GrNtCh Outlaw Billy Jean
***************Grnt Timber Jack
**********Grnt Too The Max
***************Grnt Jenkins Crying Katie
*****Grnt Nighty Night Amber
***************Grnt Little Pepper
**********Grnt Moonlight Pepper Ann
***************Grnt Nighty Night Moonlight Kate

What amazed me when I first saw G-Man's pedigree wasn't that it was 4 Generations of All Grand Nt.Ch., but that the dogs in this pedigree were some of the biggest winners in their time. There are a lot of Redbone Days Winners, Purina Outstanding Coonhounds, World Ch. Redbones, and Hall of Famers. In fact it has some of the best Redbones I've ever hunted with. Many don't know about Bear Creek Ruby, Red Oak Mike, Miller's Betsy, or Jenkins Crying Katie. These dogs were big time winners in the 80s and 90s and I promise you they would be big time winners today too. You would be lucky to own one as good as these 4 dogs. Ask John Graves, Ronnie Smith, Donnie Miller and Barry Jenkins about them sometime. These are once in a lifetime dogs stacked inside an all star pedigree. The best of Max Hunter/ Roger Shabel, Bill Wallock and myself, Alton Key, Shane Maxey, Brent Peel, John Biggert, Dan Biggert, Barry Jenkins, Donny Miller, John Graves, Ron Smith, Mike Wright, and Brad Messersmith.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-04-2016 02:27 PM:

Doc, I noticed that someone used frozen semen 3 times to produce G-Man. Weren't there any good Gr Nt dogs of today to use? Who is the breeder of G-Man? Who lined up all of those Grand Nites to get that pedigree? Are there any females with All Grand pedigrees to breed G-Man to now and produce more All Grands?

Posted by ahallada on 08-06-2016 02:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Doc, I noticed that someone used frozen semen 3 times to produce G-Man. Weren't there any good Gr Nt dogs of today to use? Who is the breeder of G-Man? Who lined up all of those Grand Nites to get that pedigree? Are there any females with All Grand pedigrees to breed G-Man to now and produce more All Grands?

Mike Wright/Alton Key made that cross of Wrights Little Girl II on Outlaw JJ that produced the first 3 Gen All Grand Nite Ch. litter. From that cross came Outlaw JJ Jr.. That was a natural breeding. Then John Biggert bred Pepper Ann to Too the Max frozen semen to get an almost 3 Gen All Grand pedigree that produced Amber. Amber was owned by John Biggert and I"m not sure if he bred her back to Billy the Kid or if Roger Shabel and Shane bred her back to BTK frozen semen. Either way they had the same goal to produce the second 3 Gen All Grand pedigree litter and Shane kept a female named Billy Jean. He then bred BJ back to JJ Jr. frozen semen to get the first 4 Gen All Grand Nite Pedigree. So it takes a sire and mom both with 3 Gen Alll Grand Nite pedigrees to get the 4 Gen. Probably won't happen for a long time unless Shane breeds BJ back to a male pup out of G-Man x Breeze that would need to finish to Gr.Nt.Ch.. Then that offspring from BJ and this male would have to finish to Gr.Nt.Ch. to get to where we are now.

If G-Man is bred back to any of Shane's females or the females out of Aftershock x Bree and Jet x Bree it will produce more 3 Gen All Grand Nite litters. So far we have only bred Shane's Breeze female who is out of BTK x Bree and a littermate to Cherry Bomb. This produced a 3 Gen All Grand Nite pedigree after Breeze finished to Gr.Nt.Ch. this spring. BJ, her daughter Outlaw Annie (littermate to G owned by Lisa Key), and the pups by Breeze x G-Man are the only ones I know that can throw 4 Gen All Grand Nite pedigrees. Annie or the females from G x Breeze would have to be finished to Gr.Nt.Ch. to complete that one and they would have to be bred to a 3 Gen All Grand Nite Ch. male to get it done. i believe the Beyond Billy dog is a full littermate to BJ so that would work too on Annie if Annie were finished to Gr.Nt.Ch.

I don't know of any live current studs in the last few years before G-Man that could produce those 3 Gen All Grand Nt. pedigrees. They either weren't finished to Gr.Nt.Ch. themselves, or one of their grandparents weren't finished to Gr.Nt.Ch. The other thing I mentioned above, is that almost every dog in this pedigree was a big time winner. BJ was the only one that wasn't really pushed in the big hunts. I think it would be way easier to just breed Gr.Nt.Ch. to Gr.Nt.Ch. without any proven big hunt wins just to produce an All Gr.Nt.Ch. pedigree. But when you have a pedigree filled with proven big hunt winners I think it means a lot. I added it up on another post under the G-Man stud thread and I believe there were around 12 Redbone Days Champion Wins, 2 Purina Outstanding Coonhound Overall Winners, 8 Purina Outstanding Redbone Breed Wins, 10 Hall of Famers, and at least 10 that made it to the World Hunt Finals. I'm serious when I say most people would be happy to own any one of the dogs in this pedigree once in their lifetime.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-07-2016 04:57 PM:

Don't Chad Cartwright's Rocky X Tammy pups have a 3 gen All Grand pedigree? Those are some pretty nice dogs in their pedigree also. I have actually hunted with most of them. I wasn't around when those frozen semen sires were winning. Won't those pups be capaple of producing a 4 gen All Grand pedigree "if" they finish to Gr Nt.

Aren't there any others? Come on now, don't be bashful. It seems like "All Grand Pedigree" is something to be ashamed of now.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-07-2016 05:06 PM:

What about the Little T X Goose pups that Crazy guy just had? Won't they have a 3-gen All Grand pedigree as soon as he gets another win on Goose? Or is that a top secret? I have hunted with most of the dogs in that pedigree and I really like it too.

Posted by timber hunter on 08-08-2016 01:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ahallada

I don't know of any live current studs in the last few years before G-Man that could produce those 3 Gen All Grand Nt. pedigrees. [/B]

I think John Dell and Randy Ficken have had dogs that can reproduce a 3 generation pedigree before G-Man came on the seen. I believe John Biggert also has had a couple that can reproduce a 3 generation pedigree and I think there are a few others!!!

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 08-08-2016 01:19 AM:

There have been quite a few crosses made in the past 5 years that could produce a 3 generation all Grand if any of the offspring from those crosses were to finish out to Grand nite Champion..... but very few have done that...yet.
G Man is actually a fourth generation all grand...his mother Billy Jean was a true 3 generation all Grand and I believe the first and only redbone female who is capable of producing a four generation all Grand litter....but there are few if any males that she could be bred to in order to accomplish that. The cross on Outlaw JJ jr semen at the time was the only option to produce a 4 generation all Grand litter...and there is no more semen left on him. Maybe someday another will emerge...but it would have to have traits and ability that I feel would be a good match for me to breed her to him....I wouldn't do it just because of his papers

Posted by timber hunter on 08-08-2016 01:59 AM:

I know where there is one

that is on his way to becoming a 4 generation all-grand as well. And he is an extremely nice dog by what i've been told!!!

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