UKC Forums - my take on accuracy ect....

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Posted by mnb&t on 09-09-2015 10:34 AM:

my take on accuracy ect....

ive been following the post on why do hunters accept dogs less than 50% accuracy.

matt nohr, northern nebraska. hunt river break country near missouri river. lots of good coon hunting here with easy terrain but also lots of hell holes. have diverse mix of terrain and where located hunt every extreme of weather and conditions. ive hunted a lot of way better places and lotta way worse. aint complaining at all love the area but takes a coon dog to get it done consistently all times of year. also have coon hunted lots of different places and states and also big game hunt every chance i get.

im strictly a "pleasure hunter" hunting mostly grade dogs but also have mixed registered dogs with mine and have many "comp hunting" friends. its tough to have a discussion comparing comp hunters and dogs to pleasure hunters and their dogs. each can say "comp hunter" or "pleasure hunter" like its a dirty word.

im a lowly pleasure hunter but hunt **** hard 200 days and or nights a year. its my get away from real life so dont pursue comp hunting. im picky about dogs real picky but probably in different ways then some comp and other pleasure hunters. at this time only have two dogs maybe 3 that for sure will end their days here. have went through a pile of young dogs bought and raised here. im always hunting more young dogs then should looking for the "closest to perfect in my eyes" one.

like most people dogs that i want to keep long term hunt hard, track well, trees hard and stay put, can layup coon, gritty, and accurate, ect...

in the accuracy department the way i hunt tells the tale way more than comp hunting can. can go into every tree with light on low or with color trying to find coon before handling dogs like when comp hunting. ive found hundreds of coon when going in or after getting dogs off tree and if was comp hunt time was up and if you found it doesnt matter. on a weekly basis i use camera armpit deep in dentrees, brushpiles, or holes to find coon wouldnt known were there otherwise.

also when i pack hunt with strange dogs im not sure or worried about only take the bomb proof dogs. young and or not solid real deal dogs can be easily sucked in on slick trees. pleasure hunting you can control what hunt with, comp hunting its a draw. also have hundreds or more trees a year where dogs are treed with coon on windy nights if i wasnt hunting the garmin it wouldnt matter.

a good percentage of slicks i get or tracks that blow up i know it isnt right if dog or dogs is in hearing by the sound. i hate a dog running track and not finishing just as much as slick, its also missing plain and simple. when my dogs goof either way they know it and get corrected.

and by the way if dog is "50% accurate" the way i hunt, that dog don't work here anymore...

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Posted by novicane65 on 09-09-2015 11:39 AM:

Good way to put the competition hunt vs pleasure hunt. I happen to agree with you.

Posted by Cowboyred on 09-09-2015 07:29 PM:

Boy you aren't kidding about "hell holes" in those breaks, that stretch from Yankton to Niobrara has some really nasty spots. The North side of the river isn't any better.

Posted by mnb&t on 09-27-2015 08:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cowboyred
Boy you aren't kidding about "hell holes" in those breaks, that stretch from Yankton to Niobrara has some really nasty spots. The North side of the river isn't any better.

thats exactly where i live and sounds like you know the area. LOL. it can be a '"dandy" place at times but i like hunting it. wish across the creek wasnt so silly about non res hound hunting, i would buy non res permit in heart beat if could hunt over there. shoot me a pm if u ever get on this side and wanna dump.

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Posted by Wes Coffman on 09-27-2015 02:36 PM:

Flora, IL...excellent hunting and coon population...dry and moonlight conditions...4 of the "best" produced 10 scored trees with 4 coon seen. I wish all you 80-90%'ers would get out there and win a World Hunt.

Posted by mnb&t on 09-27-2015 02:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Wes Coffman
Flora, IL...excellent hunting and coon population...dry and moonlight conditions...4 of the "best" produced 10 scored trees with 4 coon seen. I wish all you 80-90%'ers would get out there and win a World Hunt.

read the post, from 3 weeks ago nothing to do with world hunt.

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Posted by Wes Coffman on 09-27-2015 03:00 PM:

I realize that, just saying...

Posted by RLenhart on 09-27-2015 03:40 PM:

Re: my take on accuracy ect....

quote:
Originally posted by mnb&t
ive been following the post on why do hunters accept dogs less than 50% accuracy.
...

I was in that conversation about accuracy your speaking of. I'm hesitant to even enter that discussion again due to what I believe is a fairly sudstantial difference in hunting conditions across the country (and honestly some peoples honesty reagarding the accuracy of they're dogs LOL) but since you bring it up this morning I'd like to just throw this in. I just posted a couple pics on Jcullers pic thread yesterday morning from a pleasure hunt Friday night/ Saturday morning on which I actually felt pretty good about how our dogs hunted that night. On that hunt we had two NITCHs and two pups. I did make note of accuracy at least in my head on that hunt as I have been allot lately largely due to the thread you speak of. Bottom line is we were 60% on the night as a pack but it's not really that simple. The 1st tree was almost to easy we were fortunate enough to dump those dogs right on that coon, they lit it up on the leads, we cut them they ran it 69 yards and treed with the coon, even the pups blew the top out of that one. After that in a nut shell basically the two older dogs split twice once each with the coon seen verses coon not seen. In my head I want to think if I take that easy one off them our two good dogs were 50% on trees they really had to work for and that has pretty much been the case with my own Nitch ever since the discussion we had on that other thread. Honestly I'm happy with that right now i'd hunt my dog against just about any dog and like my chances and he's not necessarily the better of the two Nitechs I speak of. My friends female is twice his age and just one of the solidest coon dogs I know. Bottom line is right now I'm still happy with 50% here in this area with leaves on "as long as the trees aren't dead leafless obvious slick trees" but come November I better see his percentage go up and I know I will.

Posted by River Birch Run on 09-27-2015 04:33 PM:

I am a comp hunter just because I feel when I have a nice dog it deserves a title. I raise and train a lot of dogs simply because I want to know what is natural about a dog before I consider breeding it. When you buy a dog or breed to someone else's dog you don't know if that dog does the things it does because it's natural or man trained. Exp( If I like a dog because it split trees most of the time is that in it's DNA or has it been "trained" to do so). I keep a ledger of all of my dogs starting the 1st of OCT till about April. I write down everything from each cut out from the wind, temp, dry, wet, moon tracks ran and finished, coon seen, dens, slick and notes if I think a dog jumped tracks ect. The 1st yr I did this I was surprised as to which dog had the best stats if you will and the end. It was not the dog that I though it would be. I have found this is the best way to truly be honest about what you are packing at the end of your lead. But beware you my not like what you find out!

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Posted by moonshine man on 09-27-2015 05:23 PM:

%%%

You caint base a dogs % on trees by 1 hunt or 10 hunts you would have to add it up on kill season and then again on off season to get a true %.
That was 4 of the best dogs in the nation in the world hunt last night that put up big numbers all year with a high % of seen coons but i will bet you it was low last night but if you have thin coon dry weather bright moon and other factors it will happen.

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Posted by RLenhart on 09-27-2015 08:17 PM:

Re: %%%

quote:
Originally posted by moonshine man
You caint base a dogs % on trees by 1 hunt or 10 hunts you would have to add it up on kill season and then again on off season to get a true %.
That was 4 of the best dogs in the nation in the world hunt last night that put up big numbers all year with a high % of seen coons but i will bet you it was low last night but if you have thin coon dry weather bright moon and other factors it will happen.

You are absolutely correct and I'll take it one step farther and say over the summer I rally don't want bothered with actually worrying about %. That's not really what summer hunting is all about to me. It's just that in light of recent conversations I have been giving it close consideration and chuckling every time I do because "by what some of these guys have said they won't tolerate they'd have shot my dog this summer LOL" and yes I still stand behind my dog. He may not be perfect and he may never win the world but I know he's a pretty good dog LOL.

Posted by msinc on 09-28-2015 01:53 AM:

Roger, just so I am clear...do you count only the trees you see a coon in, period, end of story????? And consider all other trees, hollow, large, leafy, etc. as a miss???? If that is the way it's done I woulda done shot every coon hound I ever hunted with...it seems kinda hard on the dog to me. I know everyone is different and some do in fact consider it that way, but it don't hardly seem fair to the dog/s.
We have quite a few huge, like 125 ft. tall plus poplar trees with branches bigger than most trees trunk around here in some of these bottoms. Even in the dead middle of winter it can be tough to see a coon up there. We also have some huge long leaf pines that while most of the time a coon don't prefer them to climb, sometimes some dogs {not mine of course, just sayin'} will push them so hard they got no choice. I don't have to tell you that even in the winter a 100 ft tall long leaf pine is almost impossible to find a coon in. If you are very lucky and he didn't go to the top, you might see his tail. Not to mention hollows a man can get in. Given all this it don't seem fair to the dog to count against him.
Now, all that said, except for the few years I lived up your way, I hunted here all my life and years ago I had the pleasure of hunting with a little walker female for a while. When she barked you were going to look at a coon it was just that simple. I guess she must have picked her tracks carefully but that is the way she operated...haven't seen it since.

Posted by RLenhart on 09-28-2015 02:06 AM:

You completely miss my point Msinc, i actually think it is silly to try to accurately measure a dogs accuracy with the leaves on. In my mind the best you can do is be honest with yourself when shining those trees and make a mental note of how many trees were "maybes" as opposed to "dead @ss elms with no leaves on them" and yes my dog has treed on a couple of those but as I've stated before "he aint perfect" and I'm honest to a fault LOL The only time that recording accuracy actually means anything to me is when the leaves are off. I'm just having some fun with this whole accuracy thing LOL BUT I am very happy to hear that the most accurate dog you ever had was a WALKER LOL

Posted by BIG$BLUES on 09-28-2015 02:22 AM:

When you read about how accurate a dog is one must take in consideration how honest there handler is because there are people who see a coon in every tree there dog gets on

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Posted by msinc on 09-28-2015 02:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by RLenhart
You completely miss my point Msinc, i actually think it is silly to try to accurately measure a dogs accuracy with the leaves on. In my mind the best you can do is be honest with yourself when shining those trees and make a mental note of how many trees were "maybes" as opposed to "dead @ss elms with no leaves on them" and yes my dog has treed on a couple of those but as I've stated before "he aint perfect" and I'm honest to a fault LOL The only time that recording accuracy actually means anything to me is when the leaves are off. I'm just having some fun with this whole accuracy thing LOL BUT I am very happy to hear that the most accurate dog you ever had was a WALKER LOL

Okay...we are on the same page then. I wasn't clear, that's why I asked.... Ever notice that when you go to competition hunts there seems to be a whole different bunch of guys that hunt in the summer than in the dead of winter???
The little male walker I have now, I am hesitant to brag on him, but I am tickled pink so far with his accuracy....I haven't kept a detailed log on him, but it is very rare that we don't find the coon when he trees. Now my blue female is as hard a tree dog as it gets, but she will miss now and then. Usually not by much...when she misses it is in the tree 4 or 5 feet from the one the coon is sitting in. I can stand that, but it don't do me a lot of good on a hunt!!!
All this talk about possums...ever notice that the dogs just sound so good when they are doing it?????

Posted by RLenhart on 09-28-2015 02:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc

All this talk about possums...ever notice that the dogs just sound so good when they are doing it?????

LOL That's because that stinkin grinner is usually only 12 feet off the ground. LOL

Posted by msinc on 09-28-2015 02:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by BIG$BLUES
When you read about how accurate a dog is one must take in consideration how honest there handler is because there are people who see a coon in every tree there dog gets on

I know quite a few of those very fellas you are talkin' about....they see a coon in every tree especially when they hunt by themselves. I will grant them one thing...they have got some tree dogs alright....just nothin' in the trees!!!!!

Posted by msinc on 09-28-2015 02:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by RLenhart
LOL That's because that stinkin grinner is usually only 12 feet off the ground. LOL

About two weeks ago, I shouldn't even tell this, but I have to admit it...I was hunting the blue dog, not the walker...we struck a track and they got it going. At first it didn't sound too awful good...they seemed like they were having a pretty tough time getting it going. Finally the bluetick gets it moving and slowly works it up...they {she had a little red helper} move it on out and a good 15 minutes of sounding better they finally throw the best locate you ever heard...we talked about how good they done on that track the whole way to the tree. They really pulled down on that tree...the woods echoed with the sound of "we got him cold boss!!!"
Expecting to see one of those great big poplars, nope, its a gum tree about 8 inches in diameter. I said, "man they must have really got to drivin' him to make him climb this!!!"
Well, there sat {just about 12 feet up as you said} the biggest, fattest, I swear to god the thing had to weigh 20 pounds, it was T.H.E. biggest possum I have ever seen!!! I didn't know they got this big!!! So much for "working" a track.....

Posted by michael.magorian on 09-29-2015 02:28 AM:

I'm beginning to wonder how many hunters out there KNOW if there is a coon in the tree or not. I have hunted with Matt more than anyone, and I would bet money he hunts more than most replying. Not that I need to defend Matt against anyone, but he sure doesn't give a tree a once over and says, "Yep, we will give them that den." There has been many of times when I have more than given up on any kind of optimism and Matt has found the coon after 30 minutes of looking.

This discussion makes me think of the coon hunting show that was on a few years ago, and guys on it would always say, "Ya, we are going to have to circle this one. The leaves are just too thick." And they'd staring at a tree 16" in diameter.

If you KNOW your dog is honestly 50% accurate how can you brag that dog at all. I would be livid pissed if I walk a quarter to half a mile and 50% of the time it is for no reason.

Not trying to hurt any butts, but if I was wrong 50% of the time, I would probably be finding new employment as well.

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Posted by msinc on 09-29-2015 03:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by michael.magorian
Not trying to hurt any butts, but if I was wrong 50% of the time, I would probably be finding new employment as well.

Not if you were the weather man!!!! I am pretty sure only being 50% wrong would get you some kind of award!!!!

Posted by mnb&t on 09-29-2015 09:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Not if you were the weather man!!!! I am pretty sure only being 50% wrong would get you some kind of award!!!!

well that statement officially made my night!!! fairly low chance of here and there rain tonight and we got hammered while i was hunting. wouldnt have even been out if not trying new light.

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Posted by mnb&t on 09-29-2015 10:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Wes Coffman
I realize that, just saying...

there are so many styles of dogs and styles of hunting that it cant be compared but one thing ive always stood by is hunt type of dog you like and way you like to. no compromise because something is popular or winning in hunts. good friend of mine that seen today but havent hunted with in quite some time helped me realize that. we hunted a lot but dogs were different styles and both had to get young dogs in programs going in right direction so both went different directions. to this day we both appreciate eachothers dogs and time spent in woods and what learned from eachother.

i will flat out tell anyone dont want type of dog that average comp hunter wants and also dont want average pleasure dog. not that anything is wrong with any of them. they are all dogs just gotta find ones that suit you and your way of hunting. its not a popularity contest.

i like qood strike dog but gotta be honest and if strike uses mouth what some would call tight, i call honest. if strikes gets treed or catches game.

i love to pack hunt trained dogs tracking and treeing together and not afraid to admit it. or hunting young dog with style of dog i like. with so many pack hunting is dirty word as well.

i like pack hunting good dogs together or young dogs with a good dog as every one im hunting is voice or tone trained. no leads unless on tree. its so easy to do if dog has brain and has time spent working with. takes the punishment out of handling dogs. i can call every dog on my place whether seasoned veteran or young dumb pup while walking, off tree, off catch or shoot out. with little repetition most can learn. i single hunt plenty to but when comes to pack hunting i like to choose who the young dog is hunting with. hunting a young go getter with wired 440 strange dogs its not gonna go good more often than not.

very lucky to live where have big areas to hunt dogs during day time. that really tells the tale on trashing and slick treeing and i correct it hard if dog is far enough along. correct just as hard hunting nights but hunting days shows a lot that night hunting wont. especially trash wise.

different strokes for different folks. i hunt the way like to and could care less about any comp hunt let alone world championship. respect the hell out of anyone hunting that way and going for it but not for me and not gonna pretend to.

happy hunting, matt.

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Posted by RLenhart on 09-29-2015 12:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by michael.magorian
I'm beginning to wonder how many hunters out there KNOW if there is a coon in the tree or not. I have hunted with Matt more than anyone, and I would bet money he hunts more than most replying. Not that I need to defend Matt against anyone, but he sure doesn't give a tree a once over and says, "Yep, we will give them that den." There has been many of times when I have more than given up on any kind of optimism and Matt has found the coon after 30 minutes of looking.

This discussion makes me think of the coon hunting show that was on a few years ago, and guys on it would always say, "Ya, we are going to have to circle this one. The leaves are just too thick." And they'd staring at a tree 16" in diameter.

If you KNOW your dog is honestly 50% accurate how can you brag that dog at all. I would be livid pissed if I walk a quarter to half a mile and 50% of the time it is for no reason.

Not trying to hurt any butts, but if I was wrong 50% of the time, I would probably be finding new employment as well.

Now Michael nobody's picking on Matt, I mostly agree with him I was poking fun at the formulas and such for recording accuracy we discussed in the other thread he referenced and the notion that a dog that's normally accurate with the leaves off isn't with the leaves on. I will never agree that the nature of trees your shining over the summer is ever consistent enough to seriously affect my opinion of a dog that's very good with leaves off. Sure there's some trees I shine with leaves on that I figure I BETTER find a coon in this one but there's also plenty that I don't know, you wouldn't know, and Matt wouldn't know what's there BUT 30 minutes to shine a tree "REALLY? holy crap LOL I'll just take that 1/2 hour and go tree two more and hope he picks a better tree for me to shine LOL

Posted by JiM on 09-29-2015 01:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by michael.magorian
I'm beginning to wonder how many hunters out there KNOW if there is a coon in the tree or not. I have hunted with Matt more than anyone, and I would bet money he hunts more than most replying. Not that I need to defend Matt against anyone, but he sure doesn't give a tree a once over and says, "Yep, we will give them that den." There has been many of times when I have more than given up on any kind of optimism and Matt has found the coon after 30 minutes of looking.

Shining a tree for 30 minutes? Seriously or is that an exaggeration? I would think having a dog there with the handler treeing for 30 minutes on what might end up being a slick would do nothing more than enforce slick treeing.
Thick leaves in the summer definately adds to the difficulty and time shining but I feel like 10 minutes and then end it, right, wrong or otherwise would be far better than standing around that tree for 30 minutes. Not to mention the amount of hunting time down the drain.

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Posted by michael.magorian on 09-29-2015 02:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Shining a tree for 30 minutes? Seriously or is that an exaggeration? I would think having a dog there with the handler treeing for 30 minutes on what might end up being a slick would do nothing more than enforce slick treeing.
Thick leaves in the summer definately adds to the difficulty and time shining but I feel like 10 minutes and then end it, right, wrong or otherwise would be far better than standing around that tree for 30 minutes. Not to mention the amount of hunting time down the drain.

I'm dead serious. I would think that a person would rather KNOW there is a coon in the tree and praise the dog for a job well done, rather than let the dog continue to tree slicks. Just my opinion anyway. Coon is in the tree praise the dog, and if there isn't a coon in the tree, don't say a word and yank it off the tree and kick out again.

I guess time is relevant only to the hunter. Would you rather have a dog tree 3 trees in 30 minutes with no idea if there were any coons, or would you rather tree one coon and know for sure?

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