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-- competition hunters (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928416103)


Posted by pat endel on 04-21-2015 04:13 PM:

competition hunters

I would like your opinion on this. If UKC scored + on coon seen,circle on dens and - on the other trees. Remember it"s just your opinion.


Posted by Frank M on 04-21-2015 04:56 PM:

Not sure what your asking here but I will try and answer what I think your asking.

I personally would be fine with no circle trees......just plus or minus. Circle don't help you place a dog except as a tie breaker. Do away with circle trees all together. You either see the coon or you don't bottom line.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-21-2015 05:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Frank M
Not sure what your asking here but I will try and answer what I think your asking.

I personally would be fine with no circle trees......just plus or minus. Circle don't help you place a dog except as a tie breaker. Do away with circle trees all together. You either see the coon or you don't bottom line.



Great Idea. After a few months of this our sport would be totally destroyed.

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Posted by dchartt on 04-21-2015 05:05 PM:

Lol i didnt even read a question in the original post


Posted by Blusk25 on 04-21-2015 05:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
Great Idea. After a few months of this our sport would be totally destroyed.




Could you explain? I figured it would help the sport by getting more pleasure hunters involved. People on this site forget comp hunters are the minority. There are more pleasure hunters than comp. I also believe that is why everyone is on here complaining about breeding for this or that to benefit comp hunters, but the majority don't comp hunt. So they breed for coon seen. Not speed. Not independence. Hell they can even breed to be silent. Most I know want a dog to go 300 yards and return to them if not struck. That won't win you a lot of comp hunts but that's what they want.


Posted by Jeff Prince on 04-21-2015 05:20 PM:

Are you saying minus a huge leafy tree with no coon seen ? If you are you could be minused out quick where I hunt . There are coons but a lot of pressure from hunters and the ones that look have been thinned way down .

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Posted by Frank M on 04-21-2015 06:26 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff Prince
Are you saying minus a huge leafy tree with no coon seen ? If you are you could be minused out quick where I hunt . There are coons but a lot of pressure from hunters and the ones that look have been thinned way down . [/]

Are you saying the only way you find a coon is because it looks at you? More often than not I show people a whole coon not just eye(s). I would prefer all trees be plus or minus.....way to many tree monsters out there in today's comp hunts that get circled instead of minused when they are slick.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 04-21-2015 06:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blusk25
People on this site forget comp hunters are the minority. There are more pleasure hunters than comp.


I'm not going to touch this debate, but I am curious about your statement. I've tried for years to get statistics on the number of coon hunters, in general, without a break-down of comp versus pleasure only. I've triangulated-in on a range to the population, but what I've found is that there are more competition hunters in many areas of the country, although there's a sizable (and important) population of pleasure only, guys and gals.

What leads you to believe that competition hunters are the minority? And why would the scoring of trees make any difference in whether they chose to compete? There's a lot more to the hunt than just the tree scoring aspect, and I'm sure many more frustrations than just that aspect.

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Posted by Jeff Prince on 04-21-2015 06:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Frank M
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff Prince
Are you saying minus a huge leafy tree with no coon seen ? If you are you could be minused out quick where I hunt . There are coons but a lot of pressure from hunters and the ones that look have been thinned way down . [/]

Are you saying the only way you find a coon is because it looks at you? More often than not I show people a whole coon not just eye(s). I would prefer all trees be plus or minus.....way to many tree monsters out there in today's comp hunts that get circled instead of minused when they are s.

come find them for me this summer. I find a very high percentage with leaves off . Same dog same woods in the summer lucky to see 1 out of 3. Personally I wish all comp hunts were with leaves off. I love seeing the idiots run up a big score the wrong direction.

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Posted by dustin15 on 04-21-2015 06:48 PM:

I've said it many of times plus beats circle every time, if my dogs treeing coon and yours is treeing huge leafy trees I could care less if you circle or minus them...

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Posted by AlanGarner on 04-21-2015 06:52 PM:

I agree coon or no coon end of story. Made me think of that coon hunting tv show that was on awhile. They made such big deal about walker competition dogs but even when tree size my arm didn't show coon. But when off colored dogs were featured they showed coons in trees. Coincidentally.?

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-21-2015 08:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dustin15
I've said it many of times plus beats circle every time, if my dogs treeing coon and yours is treeing huge leafy trees I could care less if you circle or minus them...


Dustin ir right on here.

This scorecard was from this past Friday night. Are you saying my female because she treed on 4 legit den trees she should have minused out? You guys need to sit back and think for a minute.

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Posted by pat endel on 04-21-2015 09:36 PM:

hunts

Hoosier Man, read the post again. Just opinions please


Posted by micooner on 04-21-2015 09:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
I'm not going to touch this debate, but I am curious about your statement. I've tried for years to get statistics on the number of coon hunters, in general, without a break-down of comp versus pleasure only. I've triangulated-in on a range to the population, but what I've found is that there are more competition hunters in many areas of the country, although there's a sizable (and important) population of pleasure only, guys and gals.

What leads you to believe that competition hunters are the minority? And why would the scoring of trees make any difference in whether they chose to compete? There's a lot more to the hunt than just the tree scoring aspect, and I'm sure many more frustrations than just that aspect.

Dave just curious what number did you come up with for coonhunters? As far as changing just leave it alone, either people want to compete or not. jmho


Posted by Blusk25 on 04-21-2015 10:07 PM:

What leads you to believe that competition hunters are the minority? And why would the scoring of trees make any difference in whether they chose to compete? There's a lot more to the hunt than just the tree scoring aspect, and I'm sure many more frustrations than just that aspect. [/B][/QUOTE]


I might be mistaken about other areas of the country. I think we all make that mistake of assuming all other areas are the same as our own. In saying that the majority of people in my area pleasure hunt. We haven't had an active club in over twenty years. Yes I agree that there are more frustrations than just the scoring of trees. I believe that every problem has multiple layers. Our problem here is attendance to hunts. It's discussed on here a lot. Most pleasure hunters agree that rules to comp hunting are overly complicated. Circle points would be one of the layers that could be relieved. You may or may not gain a small % in attendance if that rule was changed. I guess my point is the simpler the rules the more interest the sport would get by pleasure hunters.


Posted by msinc on 04-21-2015 10:15 PM:

I have never quite understood the mentality or logic behind minusing a dog if the coon happens to run in a den or big leafy tree or otherwise someplace where he could be but you can't see him????? If any given dog strikes a coon and that coon happens to decide to go to the very top of the biggest leafiest poplar tree around how is that the dogs fault to get minused for????? Some of these guys want to minus every dog that trees when no coon is seen regardless of whether or not there is plainly a big hollow den. We have circle points for a reason, that reason is because there could be a coon there...we just can't see it or prove it so the dog gets nothing...
How about we go the opposite way and give the dog say 1/2 or 1/4 plus points when clearly a coon could be there???? Why not award a job that appears to be well done instead of penalizing one or giving it nothing{circle}???????
Now, don't get me wrong...I hate slick treeing dogs, {or is it squirrel treeing?? Whatever we call it these days.} and if a dog is treeing every ten minutes on a big tree he is still not getting the plus points it takes to win so who cares??? As long as you are not the guy that feeds that dog.


Posted by yadkintar on 04-21-2015 10:26 PM:

Pretty much if everybody is treed together they will circle anything but if your leading the cast and you get treed by your self you better find a coon or have a hole big as a trash can or your going to get minused.


Posted by RLenhart on 04-21-2015 11:12 PM:

Re: hunts

quote:
Originally posted by pat endel
Hoosier Man, read the post again. Just opinions please

It looked to me like he was voicing an opinion.
Now my opinion is minussing large leafy trees would be way less fair than continuing to circle them because it's just going to tip the scales in favor of the subpar dog that struggles to make a tree or two while penalizing the dog that's out there working it's butt off to get treed. Iv'e seen to many trees that would be anybodies guess if there was a coon up there or walked 1/2 way across a field and turned back just to see eyes shining when there was no way you were going to get it to look while you were in there scoring it.


Posted by GA DAWG on 04-22-2015 12:03 AM:

Honestly I think it work. Dont think so? Check the accuracy thread. They see 9 outta 10 all yr. I would minus dens to myself. Its either coon seen or minus!! And i dont even claim to a 90 percenter.

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Posted by Krystal Lear on 04-22-2015 01:16 AM:

Re: Re: hunts

quote:
Originally posted by RLenhart
It looked to me like he was voicing an opinion.
Now my opinion is minussing large leafy trees would be way less fair than continuing to circle them because it's just going to tip the scales in favor of the subpar dog that struggles to make a tree or two while penalizing the dog that's out there working it's butt off to get treed. Iv'e seen to many trees that would be anybodies guess if there was a coon up there or walked 1/2 way across a field and turned back just to see eyes shining when there was no way you were going to get it to look while you were in there scoring it.



I agree with this 100%. If circle trees do nothing but break ties, why get rid of them? My dog is quick and likes to tree coon. If we're minusing dens and unshinable trees, then I'm going to minus out real quick even though my dog is truly working for what she's supposed to do. Circles are there for a reason. To keep things fair. Are you going to scold your dog while pleasure hunting through the week if they tree on a den? And if you truly believe you can always find a coon if it's there then either A.) You shine that tree WAY longer than what's permitted for shine time. B.) You never look back on your way out. C.) You might be scolding your dog on what you think is a slick, when it's actually a coon, or D.) You only hunt with the leaves off and climb into den trees. All dogs miss! Don't get me wrong. I just don't believe in negative consequences unless you know for sure the coon is not there. Nite hunts especially.

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Posted by sscace on 04-22-2015 01:38 AM:

competition hunters

look at the stud adds how many non comp studs do you see advertised hat why you have 70 percent accuracy breeder breed for comp dogs not balanced dogs uick loud and stat put right or wrongjust an opinion


Posted by pamjohnson on 04-22-2015 01:48 PM:

legitimate circle trees. legitimate dens,size of tree,leaf cover,it is all up for discretion by the viewer. circle don't count for anything but a tie breaker.correct!
the problem is anything can and does get circled way to often.

no how does circle points not count? is that fair to the other casts?
don,t answer opinions only remember!
yes plus or minus pts only could work but i think u shouldn't be able to minus out if that rule was changed.


Posted by buck brush on 04-22-2015 02:22 PM:

WHY

do you always want to change things here is MOP if you just MIN. and Plus points a lot of people would be out in no time and the hunt numbers would be lower then they are now. or you will want UKC to change that you can win on MIN. points , like the other kennel club, that is when all the tree monsters came in to play.


Dave look at the hunt numbers and see if the competition hunters are not the minority, I know there are still people that go to hunts every week end but it sure is not like it use to be a club not to far from me drew 15 dogs there last hunt , they use to draw 80 to 100 at every hunt they had, and they thought 15 was doing good, all you have now is pleasure hunters that go to competition hunt when they are local in most cases. JMO

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Posted by va.b&t on 04-22-2015 02:54 PM:

I cant wait to pay an entry fee on a cold night and see two coons and then minus out because my dog had first and first on two den trees!!! what dog out there knows not to tree on a den tree with a hot track from a coon coming down for a quick drink and going right back up.

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Posted by RLenhart on 04-22-2015 03:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by va.b&t
I cant wait to pay an entry fee on a cold night and see two coons and then minus out because my dog had first and first on two den trees!!! what dog out there knows not to tree on a den tree with a hot track from a coon coming down for a quick drink and going right back up.

"I AM against what he's saying" but you guys aren't reading what he said clearly either. He is not saying to (-) den trees just the trees without a hole.


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