UKC Forums - Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 01-14-2015 03:05 PM:

Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

Why do people with a good female think that she has to bred to a good male in order to get good pups but people with a good male think that they can breed him to any female and get good pups?

Posted by Larry D Walker on 01-14-2015 03:15 PM:

Re: Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why do people with a good female think that she has to bred to a good male in order to get good pups but people with a good male think that they can breed him to any female and get good pups?

NOT SURE WHO THINKS LIKE THAT BUT I DISAGREE TOTALLY

IN FACT I KNOW FOR SURE THAT IT IS JUST THE OPPOSITE

MOST OF THE TIME

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Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 01-14-2015 04:25 PM:

Re: Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why do people with a good female think that she has to bred to a good male in order to get good pups but people with a good male think that they can breed him to any female and get good pups?

Richard I hate to say it but the old money for the stud fee talks a whole lot more that it should.

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Posted by l p w on 01-14-2015 05:04 PM:

dogs

I wish someone would figure out how to bred them so everybody could have a good one

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Posted by oklared on 01-14-2015 07:23 PM:

TO MANY FOLKS BREED FEMALS BEFORE THEY ARE COONDOGS JUST TO SELL PUPPYS THEN THEY PUT THE FEMALES ON HERE AND TRY TO SELL THEM AS JUST STARTED AT 2 OR 3 YRS OLD AND SAY THEY JUST NEED HUNTED (REALY)

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Posted by JShelton on 01-14-2015 08:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
TO MANY FOLKS BREED FEMALS BEFORE THEY ARE COONDOGS JUST TO SELL PUPPYS THEN THEY PUT THE FEMALES ON HERE AND TRY TO SELL THEM AS JUST STARTED AT 2 OR 3 YRS OLD AND SAY THEY JUST NEED HUNTED (REALY)

and it seems like you see more of it on the redbone forum than any other breed. Then we wonder why theres a different. Color dog winning every weekend. Jmo

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Posted by RedScorpion on 01-14-2015 08:04 PM:

Re: Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why do people with a good female think that she has to bred to a good male in order to get good pups but people with a good male think that they can breed him to any female and get good pups?

So what is a brood female, anyway?

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Posted by OUTLAW REDBONE on 01-14-2015 08:16 PM:

Re: Re: Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

quote:
Originally posted by RedScorpion
So what is a brood female, anyway?

I've had a few over the years

GRNITECH GRCH RATLIFF'S OUTLAW DIXIE
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GRNITECH CH SOGGY BOTTOM RAZOR'S LIVE WIRE (DAISY)
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NITECH CH RATLIFF'S DARK TIMBER HERNIE
NITECH L'S DARK TIMBER WENDY

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Posted by donjohnson on 01-14-2015 08:58 PM:

Would someone explain what this means. Pup sure does act good in the woods just won't tree

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 01-14-2015 10:31 PM:

If people would demand that pups they buy be out of good proven females.....then maybe "so called breeders" who are just making crosses to sell redbone pups would wind up getting stuck with a bunch of pups nobody wants and they would stop doing it. Everyone wants to have a stud dog and everyone wants to be a breeder....but few want to put in the hard work that is required to be successful at either. I will say this....there are more potentially great crosses planned for 2015 from proven, quality females that have been matched with proven quality males than any other year I can remember. That is a step in the right direction. I am very happy to see more and more females being proven and promoted in stiff competition than ever before. This will be the key to the breed reaching the next level in my opinion. If we want to compete with the other breeds ....AND WIN....we simply must identify and breed the best to the best and match traits for consistency in the offspring.
To me the best will always mean the best competition dogs who have proven they are better than most dogs they hunt against by winning consistently.... but to others the best may be judged with a different yard stick. Either way...we as a breed we really need to concentrate on quality over quantity when we breed redbones. A high % of redbones are or should be culled each year because of poor "shot in the dark" breeding practices of people who are more concerned with making puppies than they are with making better and better redbones. If your in it for the money....then your probably in it for entirely the wrong reasons.

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Posted by Riffecreek on 01-14-2015 11:15 PM:

Shane, I think the big problem is everyone's opinion on "Proven Females".... She could be a proven coon dog, a proven mother, a proven great reproducer, or a proven possum dog..

I can also say that anyone breeding a stud dog or female for the first time has no clue if they can reproduce great coon dogs so they aren't proven until those pups get to hunting age.. I also think "early starting" isn't a trait I'd rank in the top 5 things I look for in a pup.

My great grandpa bred and raised Redbones from the 1960's until the early 80's. I can barely remember that old red dog laying on the porch just waiting for someone to come outside. I was 4 years old when my great grandpa died at the age of 92 and that old red dog was on the porch the morning they took him away. The dog died 5 months later and that ended the line he had produced for over 20 years.. Grandma showed me his notes years later and it brought back the memories of what he used to say about breeding coon dogs.

What he looked for in his pups isn't even considered in many people's way of thinking.. Here is what he used to say... A pup needs to have the willingness to please it's owner, the drive to go hunting, the natural abilities to track a coon, the natural instincts to tree that coon, and the brains to stay there until he got to it.. It needed to do all this even if it had NEVER SEEN another dog tree a coon in it's life.. Then you have something to work with... His belief was, If you have all the above in your breeding program, no papers or titles can ever reproduce a better pup in any breed...

I still look over his notes from time to time and many females he bred to didn't have to prove anything other than what they showed him as a pup and he didn't have any trouble producing great tree dogs.

I do believe if one follows his way's of thinking, the females will have no problem proving themselves in the hunts.. I'll tell you the results in about 3 years lol

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 01-15-2015 12:09 AM:

Everyone will argue over what proven means because many will try to squeeze their female into that box. I dont have to see a title on a dog to know what caliber it is.....if I have seen it with several other good dogs and it was better at treeing coons than they are. I usually like to see that more than once. She also would need to have some proven winners and reproducers behind her to satisfy my requirements to breed her though. There is a difference between a proven winner and a proven reproducer....
Just like there is a difference between a coon coon dog who can tree lots of coon alone and a good competition dog who can do the same.....but can do it better than most dogs it competes against.
Good coon dogs are not always good competition dogs. For a dog to be good in competition....it has to win...and to win it has to be the best in its cast and to be a proven winner....it has to be the best in its cast ...a lot....and year round...and in many different types of hunting preferably in multiple states against stiff competition. Thats a proven winner in my book. You will not know if its a proven reproducer until she has a couple of litters on the ground over two years old.

Posted by Preston Owens on 01-15-2015 02:13 AM:

Re: Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why do people with a good female think that she has to bred to a good male in order to get good pups but people with a good male think that they can breed him to any female and get good pups?

Hmm, this is an interesting post, I've always thought if someone wanted to breed there nice female to one of my plugs that I shouldn't stand in their way at a chance to better what they have if they thought it would and of course until it's tried you just don't know, could be better than what I've got or ever had.. it's all perspective. I heard a story about a female that wasn't much but every time she was bred to a certain male there were some mighty loud hard Goin winners that treed real coon born. Every time that cross was made ,several times, even tho I've seen that a repeat cross doesn't work. I have the offspring reports that say different. Good post.. I'm Goin to tree one on the outside with one of those loud suckers....

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 01-15-2015 02:54 AM:

Re: Re: Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
Hmm, this is an interesting post, I've always thought if someone wanted to breed there nice female to one of my plugs that I shouldn't stand in their way at a chance to better what they have if they thought it would and of course until it's tried you just don't know, could be better than what I've got or ever had.. it's all perspective. I heard a story about a female that wasn't much but every time she was bred to a certain male there were some mighty loud hard Goin winners that treed real coon born. Every time that cross was made ,several times, even tho I've seen that a repeat cross doesn't work. I have the offspring reports that say different. Good post.. I'm Goin to tree one on the outside with one of those loud suckers....

I think you and several others confuse whats been posted about repeat crosses Preston. It was never claimed that they dont produce some good coon dogs....the claim was...and still is...that there are almost no historical examples where a second cross produced more titled dogs than a first cross which produced 2 or more titled dogs. Repeat crosses have been made hundreds if not thousands of times and there are hundreds if not thousands of examples where repeat crosses failed to produce equal or better number of titled dogs than the first cross.....and the examples that have been found where they have produced equal or more can be added on one hand with fingers left over. Numbers of Titled dogs can be tracked.....peoples accounts off good dogs from repeat crosses cannot and relies not on factual data but people's personal opinions. It has always been my position that if repeat crosses produced anywhere close to the same ability ....IN THE SAME NUMBER OF PUPS as the original cross.....then the number of winners who earn titles would be on average the same with some cases being better and some worse. But when repeat crosses have been studied and less than 1% of the time they have beat original crosses on overall number of titled dogs....its pretty clear at least by factual historical data....how unsuccessful repeat crosses are.
It has been argued and debated to death on here....but somehow it always gets brought back up and the important "criteria" concerning the number of titled dogs always gets left out. Without that important fact and requirement....the entire theory is subject not to fact...but personal opinions.

Posted by Preston Owens on 01-15-2015 03:02 AM:

Richard, a feller told me that Jim and Wendy might be having a date, if I remember Wendy was the female you had at jacks bay when we were hunting. If so put me down for a pup and ill straddle the fence between team fireball and the cartel. I liked that female.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 01-15-2015 04:36 PM:

She was the one that split by herself at 13 mos old and I had to walk all of the way back to the truck and get a rifle because y'all went to your dogs. We were way down on the bottom side that night. And yes I am just waiting on her to come in heat.

Posted by Preston Owens on 01-15-2015 06:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
She was the one that split by herself at 13 mos old and I had to walk all of the way back to the truck and get a rifle because y'all went to your dogs. We were way down on the bottom side that night. And yes I am just waiting on her to come in heat.

Hey I'm dead serious about the pup.. I want one..

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Posted by Kyle Bragg on 01-15-2015 09:54 PM:

To me a brood female should be an older PROVEN female who may be a bit slow to get it done in the nite hunts. Even tho i hate that term period. And also think about all the dogs people breed to and have never hunted with.

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Posted by jdgher on 01-16-2015 03:00 AM:

Here might be the problem.

Good enough vehicle to get to the woods. $1500.00
Good enough tracking system. $ 500.00
Hunting clothes, boots, light etc. $ 400.00
Dog Box $ 400.00
Gasoline 1 year (just hunting close to home)$ 400.00
Dog food 1 year $ 300.00
Basic E collar $ 300.00
Shots, wormer and registration $ 200.00
Total: $ 4000.00

Price of pup from a brood bitch $ 150.00

Price of a pup from a proven Female $ 350.00

You can save $200.

Plus you get a new puppy and try again every 15 months.
Makes sense Huh?

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 01-16-2015 03:28 AM:

I for one think the cost of not getting the best bred pup you can far outweighs the added upfront cost when you figure up all the time, effort, frustration and disappointment after a couple years of hunting one that doesn't make a solid coon dog.
And what i mean by best bred us not about papers or titles its about a pup being from solid coon dog parents with good reproducing ancestors. If a person does their research and homework they can find several good crosses loaded with potential....from titled dogs or just good pleasure dogs. It pays to dig deep into a dogs ancestors and identify individual dogs and lines of dogs that have consistently produced solid coon dogs.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 01-16-2015 02:33 PM:

Darrin, you left out........
A good young dog.....Priceless.

Posted by jdgher on 01-17-2015 07:56 PM:

Priceless

Yes Richard it is.
An exciting young female with the traits you like, that gets it done right. Why? Because she can make more like herself or better down the road (when bred to the right male). You have your choice of which stud to take her to.
Now that's Priceless.

Posted by Sawblade on 01-18-2015 10:04 PM:

females

If you own a high quality female and she comes from proven reproducers you control it all . You get to decide who gets the pups and who she gets bred to.
Stud owners must buy or beg to get to breed to the good females. It's how it is.

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Posted by j myers on 01-19-2015 01:12 PM:

AMEN Richard.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-09-2017 03:08 AM:

Re: Does anyone else think that it is a bit odd...

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Why do people with a good female think that she has to bred to a good male in order to get good pups but people with a good male think that they can breed him to any female and get good pups?

Did you ever find the answer to this question...asking for a friend

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