UKC Forums - The "Winningest"

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-31-2014 04:03 PM:

The "Winningest"

Very quiet in the office today!!! So I was reading some threads, on dogs that consistently win... those that have done it (RIP Mojo) and another thread on thoughts on how they have done it.

And since I'm a firm believer in consistency, over a flash in the pan, I started thinking about breeding consistent to consistent. And of course, names like Clean and Mojo come to mind, but I couldn't think of a female. And I'm not asking everyone to respond with a list of females!

What I'm wondering is whether the number of wins, has ever been published or if it could be (wink, wink, Todd and Allen)??? We have the top reproducers list, which tells you how many pups a stud or dam had that did some winning, but nothing about how many wins a stud or dam had? There are the Performance Points, and the Purina Race but again, that doesn't provide resolution into the wins over a lifetime, or specific to just the dog and not their offspring. When dogs win a world or national championship, repeatedly (on the very rare occasion that ever happens) that's obvious, but how about those dogs with cast wins at all the big events, or dozens of cast wins as a GrNTCh, etc.

If you want to produce a truly exceptional hound, not just another NTCH or GRNT, in my opinion you need the traits that allows a dog to consistently win. Knowing what dogs can do this, may help make a more informed breeding decision.

Anyone agree???

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-31-2014 04:13 PM:

It looks like you are asking for a lifetime "Total Earnings" list. I think that you will find that in that other magazine or on their pedigrees. Maybe at some point, UKC will be able to come up with a Lifetime Total Performance Points Earned list.

Posted by Steve Raleigh on 12-31-2014 04:19 PM:

Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
Very quiet in the office today!!! So I was reading some threads, on dogs that consistently win... those that have done it (RIP Mojo) and another thread on thoughts on how they have done it.

And since I'm a firm believer in consistency, over a flash in the pan, I started thinking about breeding consistent to consistent. And of course, names like Clean and Mojo come to mind, but I couldn't think of a female. And I'm not asking everyone to respond with a list of females!

What I'm wondering is whether the number of wins, has ever been published or if it could be (wink, wink, Todd and Allen)??? We have the top reproducers list, which tells you how many pups a stud or dam had that did some winning, but nothing about how many wins a stud or dam had? There are the Performance Points, and the Purina Race but again, that doesn't provide resolution into the wins over a lifetime, or specific to just the dog and not their offspring. When dogs win a world or national championship, repeatedly (on the very rare occasion that ever happens) that's obvious, but how about those dogs with cast wins at all the big events, or dozens of cast wins as a GrNTCh, etc.

If you want to produce a truly exceptional hound, not just another NTCH or GRNT, in my opinion you need the traits that allows a dog to consistently win. Knowing what dogs can do this, may help make a more informed breeding decision.

Anyone agree???

That information is provided by *kc, UKC does not do this.

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Posted by Stevendale on 12-31-2014 04:31 PM:

Grand nite Nicholas creek Revelee was put in 15 cast as a one year old won 9 of them to make grand that's pretty good average in my book .

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Posted by Carl Fox on 12-31-2014 05:06 PM:

Where are the good reproducing females?

My brother Tommy and i owned Yadkin River Missy when she won 10 straight casts on her way to making gr.nt.ch.

One cast Tommy came in with a win at Georgetown with 800plus but was five minutes late the other time Missy got in on a skunk and Tommy scratched her.

She never lost a cast what time i owned her and Tommy was her handler.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-31-2014 05:48 PM:

Richard and Steve - that's sort of what I'm looking for but not exactly. Neither lifetime earnings or performance points would tell you how they went about it. Even total $'s in any of the kennel clubs would not tell you if they consistently won a bunch of hunts or just won a couple really big ones.

What I'm thinking is probably not easy to compile, but it's along the lines of...

GrNtCh Mr. or Mrs. Consistent - Total Cast Wins: 30, GrNTCh Cast Wins: 10, Purina Hunt Cast Wins: 5, Hunts Won: 12

I only used Purina Hunts as a reference to "big hunts" but there may be a better way to categorize this. This could provide a "Top Winners" list, similar to the top reproducers list.

And again, I personally am not looking for who was the "winningest" hound, as much as I'm trying to discern who is the most consistent. IF a dog can reproduce itself or similar, I would prefer to breed to the dog that was consistently very good, as opposed to one that could produce thousands of inconsistent champions. I think you'll win more hunts, and big hunts with them, and most importantly they are a consistent pleasure to hunt the other 5 nights of the week!

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Posted by john Duemmer on 12-31-2014 06:09 PM:

Best indicator Of consistancy would be a dogs casts WON/LOSS percentage but i doubt UKC. has access to a record of a dogs total casts entered. It sure would be a great tool for the breeder.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-31-2014 06:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Best indicator Of consistancy would be a dogs casts WON/LOSS percentage but i doubt UKC. has access to a record of a dogs total casts entered. It sure would be a great tool for the breeder.

That's the type of information I'm thinking of, but without the total cast wins, it could be skewed by a hound that was entered in one hunt, and won it! Knowing the type of cast or hunt, is also needed. I'm not sure I would want to breed to a dog that had 20 registered cast wins, but could never seal the deal!

But you're right, that not knowing how many they lost, wouldn't tell the whole story, either.

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Posted by jculler8 on 12-31-2014 06:22 PM:

I like it!

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Posted by JiM on 12-31-2014 06:24 PM:

How could anyone leave out Frisky? Two World Hunts and National Grand Nite Champion. One of the best females alive.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-31-2014 06:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
How could anyone leave out Frisky? Two World Hunts and National Grand Nite Champion. One of the best females alive.

Good point Jim... I guess we're just more inundated with talk about studs, that we tend to forget about the females, even the more recent ones!

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Posted by Mike Van Dusen on 12-31-2014 06:38 PM:

Mill Creek Molly had to have a pile of win slips to accumulate over $100,000.oo in winnings,and she was from an awesome cross!

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 12-31-2014 07:11 PM:

Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
Very quiet in the office today!!! So I was reading some threads, on dogs that consistently win... those that have done it (RIP Mojo) and another thread on thoughts on how they have done it.

And since I'm a firm believer in consistency, over a flash in the pan, I started thinking about breeding consistent to consistent. And of course, names like Clean and Mojo come to mind, but I couldn't think of a female. And I'm not asking everyone to respond with a list of females!

What I'm wondering is whether the number of wins, has ever been published or if it could be (wink, wink, Todd and Allen)??? We have the top reproducers list, which tells you how many pups a stud or dam had that did some winning, but nothing about how many wins a stud or dam had? There are the Performance Points, and the Purina Race but again, that doesn't provide resolution into the wins over a lifetime, or specific to just the dog and not their offspring. When dogs win a world or national championship, repeatedly (on the very rare occasion that ever happens) that's obvious, but how about those dogs with cast wins at all the big events, or dozens of cast wins as a GrNTCh, etc.

If you want to produce a truly exceptional hound, not just another NTCH or GRNT, in my opinion you need the traits that allows a dog to consistently win. Knowing what dogs can do this, may help make a more informed breeding decision.

Anyone agree???

If you are looking for raw numbers such as CW's then you can't compare UKC hunts with other registries....I mean 15, 20, 25 CW's in UKC really doesn't amount to much when compared to a dog thats been hunted outside UKC. There are many female's out there with WELL OVER 100 CW's, heck I own one that has over 100 CW's....Dogs like Chesapeaks Rats lil Silk, MC Molly wouldnt surprise me if they had over 200 or even 300 CW's.

Posted by jay brademeyer on 12-31-2014 07:23 PM:

I had an ole female back in the 80s and early 90s that won almost every cast she was in. She is still a measuring stick for me today..she is one of my all time favorites..but she never produced much of anything that was any good..she was bred to top hounds and one was a world champion..she was as consistent as i have ever had, but was not a reproduced at all..she was one of those freaks, and most freaks don't reproduce.. I didn't say all... i said most...

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-31-2014 07:28 PM:

Re: Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Raleigh
If you are looking for raw numbers such as CW's then you can't compare UKC hunts with other registries....I mean 15, 20, 25 CW's in UKC really doesn't amount to much when compared to a dog thats been hunted outside UKC. There are many female's out there with WELL OVER 100 CW's, heck I own one that has over 100 CW's....Dogs like Chesapeaks Rats lil Silk, MC Molly wouldnt surprise me if they had over 200 or even 300 CW's.

I'm sure you can't, just as you can't compare a registered cast win to a NtCh win, and you can't compare that to a GrNtCh cast win, but I'm not thinking about comparing one registries win to another, I'm just talking about wins within UKC.

I'm sure there's no registry that is gathering data about wins within another, so there will likely never be a way to do a head to head comparison...

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Posted by MIKE CARDER on 12-31-2014 09:43 PM:

Re: Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Raleigh
If you are looking for raw numbers such as CW's then you can't compare UKC hunts with other registries....I mean 15, 20, 25 CW's in UKC really doesn't amount to much when compared to a dog thats been hunted outside UKC. There are many female's out there with WELL OVER 100 CW's, heck I own one that has over 100 CW's....Dogs like Chesapeaks Rats lil Silk, MC Molly wouldnt surprise me if they had over 200 or even 300 CW's.

300 CW's. That's 1 hunt a weekend for 6 years straight not losing. Hard to believe.

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Posted by Steve Raleigh on 12-31-2014 10:00 PM:

Re: Re: Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE CARDER
300 CW's. That's 1 hunt a weekend for 6 years straight not losing. Hard to believe.

Well you better believe Mike. I didnt say she had 300 CW's but it d*mn sure would not surprise me if either one did have 200 or even 300. I can reach out to Preston and see if he knows how many CW's Silk had....She was comp. hunted and winning when she was on Social Security bud!

Posted by buck brush on 12-31-2014 10:13 PM:

now that UKC is reg. cross breeds, back in the day when they had grade hunts all I had was a 1/2 black and tan and 1/2 cur or something she looked like a BLKTN but her chest was white, so I was going to hunts with people I put her in 37 grade hunts and won 37 hunts I have some Pic. around here some place of her I will see if I can scan them and post them on here .

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Posted by JmillerFL on 12-31-2014 10:29 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Raleigh
Well you better believe Mike. I didnt say she had 300 CW's but it d*mn sure would not surprise me if either one did have 200 or even 300. I can reach out to Preston and see if he knows how many CW's Silk had....She was comp. hunted and winning when she was on Social Security bud!

didn't the silk dog win a big one at like 10 or 11 yrs old.

Posted by Steve Raleigh on 12-31-2014 11:21 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by JmillerFL
didn't the silk dog win a big one at like 10 or 11 yrs old.

Yeah

Posted by Bolden1 on 12-31-2014 11:36 PM:

What time

I was pushing jane she was in the mid 90% of cast wins. Actually I think she only lost two cast that I know of from pr to grntch to WLDNTCH and she came back got second the next year. Plus she was and think still is number one on reproducer list. I guess she would land in the top ten of females. I know nighty nighty moonlight Kate was as impressive and in my book maybe the best of the best in that caterory

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 01-01-2015 12:07 AM:

I doubt UKC keeps a record of every dogs CastWins verses CastLost + total hunts entered. .

But I do know a dog that went from "PR" to Grand to placing 6th in UKC world hunt...all in one competition season ....accumulated wins @ the National level of competition. Only to never enter another nite hunt again .

Posted by Larry Atherton on 01-01-2015 02:06 AM:

Now my memory isn't the best, but I think Raccoon Valley Queen always seemed to win at the Regionals for many years.

Ben Crocker won a bunch with his Flash female.

There are females that consistently win a lot if you look.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 01-01-2015 05:58 AM:

Re: Re: Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE CARDER
300 CW's. That's 1 hunt a weekend for 6 years straight not losing. Hard to believe.

Not unlikely at all -the 300CW that is ... there are hunts somewhere atleast 5 nights a week and the weeks of added $ hunts quite often every night but Sunday , there are also double headers on alot of Fri and Sat nights (2 $30 or $25 hour hunts back to on same night) . I don't think he meant she won 300 in a row just that she had possibly won over 300 hunts . It would be quite easy for a dog to hunt in over 100 a year that is less than 10 a month . A guy trying for a truck ticket or running a national leader race is going to attend more than that & the month of Sept when everyone is trying to stay in top 16 , SS $ earned or to get rest of $ won to qualify for nationals (top 12 of state or $1,000 earned for year - no added $ counts toward any of these) it can get crazy how many hunts a dog is put in and where they will travel to attend even a $30 week night hunt .
The other kc's require score cards to be sent in , you can request a hunt win report on a dog - it will have date and $ amount won of every hunt the dog has ever won . I do not believe the keep win/loss records though .

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Posted by stillwater farm on 01-01-2015 06:08 AM:

Re: Re: Re: The "Winningest"

quote:
Originally posted by MIKE CARDER
300 CW's. That's 1 hunt a weekend for 6 years straight not losing. Hard to believe.

I bet Molly had over 300.She was hunted in a cast 4 to 5 nights a week for 5 or 6 years......And she was pretty consistant with those CW's.

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