UKC Forums - Why its important to make out crosses and how to do so

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Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-09-2013 01:38 PM:

Why its important to make out crosses and how to do so

These female pups will go back into the Airplane dog and throw pups that we would want to have in our kennels and would be better than our last generation. That would be a grandfather, granddaughter cross with a complete dominant outcross with good dominant genes. Let me explain. Kinda Like Dave Dean said if u like what u got at home no use in going out. If ur missing something in ur line of dogs and u find it somewhere in a stud or a dam. Look at their dominant genes by looking at their offspring and their siblings. If they all have the same kinda trait ur looking for, here is the math in how to enhance what u got and get what u need out of the outcross. U can do this several ways in line breeding. One of my favorites is the grandfather, granddaughter cross_although the half brother half sister works too it just dont seem like they reproduce down the road as well as the grandfather, granddaughter cross. Some of the best hounds ive hunted have been half brother and sister but didnt throw good pups or as good. So back to this cross. I used the MAD DOG MO BLUE SMOKE becuse he comes from a long line of winners that has things in his dominant gene pool that I need for my breeding. The thing u need to be sure of is the outcrosse's dominant genes is it the one u want or need in ur line of dogs. To find that good dominant gene once again u need to look at offspring and siblings. I will post the ped of what it will look like once its made the full three generation cycle. Once uve done ur outcross and then went back in u have enhance the dominant genes on ur side and sealed the dominant gene in ur outcross and it will show up for generations to come. Once I go back to the Airplane dog the genes will be there. I will post the ped. of how it will look on paper when I get a chance. Thanks for reading Norm

Posted by southernthunder on 09-09-2013 01:57 PM:

good post Norm. this is exactly how we like to breed our dogs. we are going to try and do the half brother x half sister cross on the next breeding. this will double up on 2 different dominant gene pools.

.........GRCH GRNITECH PR HAMLINS DAVIE CROCKET HTX
WCH PR SOUTHERN THUNDER'S CODE BLUE
.........NITECH PR SOUTHERN THUNDER'S MISTY (sire Daners Son)

pups

.........GRCH GRNITECH PR HAMLINS DAVIE CROCKET HTX
PR SOUTHERN THUNDER'S EYE CANDY
.........NITECH SOUTHERN THUNDER'S MIDNITE DANCER(sire Daners Son)

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Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-10-2013 06:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
good post Norm. this is exactly how we like to breed our dogs. we are going to try and do the half brother x half sister cross on the next breeding. this will double up on 2 different dominant gene pools.

.........GRCH GRNITECH PR HAMLINS DAVIE CROCKET HTX
WCH PR SOUTHERN THUNDER'S CODE BLUE
.........NITECH PR SOUTHERN THUNDER'S MISTY (sire Daners Son)

pups

.........GRCH GRNITECH PR HAMLINS DAVIE CROCKET HTX
PR SOUTHERN THUNDER'S EYE CANDY
.........NITECH SOUTHERN THUNDER'S MIDNITE DANCER(sire Daners Son)

ur going to be a little tight with the Son dog being ur sire of both outcroses. the Dancer female and also the Misty dog are both out of Son correct. that will take u down to a 1/6th to pull ur dominant outcross from. it might work but id bet ull get some hook tails out of it. ull seal some genes on ur line bred side too. should be able to breath good and still tree hard on a hot summer night with the Bingo and the Hanna dog being in their a couple of times.

Posted by southernthunder on 09-11-2013 02:52 AM:

both gyps are were sired by Son. Misty is completely jet v line breed. Dancer's bottom side is line breed Vinning Running Bullet and Tu Tuff Betty. where do you think the hook tail will come from? I have had at least one in every litter.

Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-11-2013 05:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
both gyps are were sired by Son. Misty is completely jet v line breed. Dancer's bottom side is line breed Vinning Running Bullet and Tu Tuff Betty. where do you think the hook tail will come from? I have had at least one in every litter.

Did not know uve had them hook tails before cause we've never met. That would not be something I would want to post on here. Call me 330-749-7176. u seem like a smart guy ull get it. I sold Son to Ron when hes 13 months so I know the cross well. I made that cross twice. Thats where airplane's dam came from.

Posted by southernthunder on 09-11-2013 07:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BUCKEYE BILLY
Did not know uve had them hook tails before cause we've never met. That would not be something I would want to post on here. Call me 330-749-7176. u seem like a smart guy ull get it. I sold Son to Ron when hes 13 months so I know the cross well. I made that cross twice. Thats where airplane's dam came from.

lol just telling it like it is

I tried to call you and left you a message

Posted by bluetickman2002 on 09-11-2013 10:12 PM:

what is the problem with having a hooked tail ? other than you might not do as well in shows

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Posted by Blue Iron on 09-11-2013 10:20 PM:

Hooked tails come from being cramped in the womb. It being genetic is a myth.

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Posted by bluetickman2002 on 09-12-2013 02:24 AM:

I have had crooked tails bent tails hooked tails and ones with lumps never had any affect at all on coon treein ability

Posted by southernthunder on 09-12-2013 04:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by bluetickman2002
I have had crooked tails bent tails hooked tails and ones with lumps never had any affect at all on coon treein ability

no it don't hurt the coon treeing ability but isn't usually the most attractive look either lol.........

Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-12-2013 04:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Blue Iron
Hooked tails come from being cramped in the womb. It being genetic is a myth.

Sorry Mr. Murphy but its a fact that its genetic when u line breed too tight on certain lines of blues. If u read the whole post ull see that I told him that with the pedigree he might get a couple of hook tails in their and he replied back what causes that cause ive already had some. Now how would I have known that. Never met the man until we talked on the phone yesterday. Its caused from getting too tight with certain lines and not having a outcross in their. Boys back in the day our breed didnt have much to choice from on the stud department so it was hard to go outside of our kennel. With the studs and the technology that we have nowa days we can ship semen to the fellers in the west can ship to the east and the east ship to the west and the same goes for the north and south. If people knew what airplane could do for ur tracking ability in the swamps in the north and in the south and the dry dirt out west u would breed to him no matter what the cost would be or breed to something closely related to him. Thanks for reading Norm

Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-12-2013 04:26 PM:

Eddie

It was nice meeting you on the phone the other day. U seem like a smart guy with alot of passion about ur hounds. Im sure ull help better our breed as a whole. Good luck to ya

Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-12-2013 04:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BUCKEYE BILLY
Sorry Mr. Murphy but its a fact that its genetic when u line bred too tight on certain lines of blues. If u read the whole post ull see that I told him that with the pedigree he might get a couple of hook tails in their and he replied back what causes that cause ive already had some. Now how would I have known that. Never met the man until we talked on the phone yesterday. Its caused from getting too tight with certain lines and not having a outcross in their. Boys back in the day our breed didnt have much to choice from on the stud department so it was hard to go outside of our kennel. With the studs and the technology that we have nowa days we can ship semen to the fellers in the west can ship to the east and the east ship to the west and the same goes for the north and south. If people knew what airplane could do for ur tracking ability in the swamps in the north and in the south and the dry dirt out west u would breed to him no matter what the cost would be or breed to something closely related to him. Thanks for reading Norm

notice: Mr. Murphy that the bluetickman2002 has the same line of dogs and hes had the same problem. Just kind of odd. Although it can show up any where in different lines but it goes back to the same line way back. When I talked about sealing dominant genes u get seal the bad ones also. Thanks for reading Norm

Posted by ov_blues on 09-12-2013 05:17 PM:

Norm

Is this what your talking about on the tails?

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Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-12-2013 06:06 PM:

Re: Norm

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Is this what your talking about on the tails?

yes sir, nice looking heads though. Can u post their pedigree.

Posted by ov_blues on 09-12-2013 06:11 PM:

I think two of the pups had the crook tails. Only time I've seen that out of Jimmy pups. Always heard that was a something that showed up in the Hammer dogs. Myth or truth?

--------------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Slife's Blue Rambo
---------------Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Smiley's Blue Rambo II
--------------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Smiley's Misti Blue
----------Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Clear River Diamond Jim
--------------------Smokey River Blue Spud
---------------Gr Nt Ch Clear River Curlee
--------------------Nt Ch Smokey River Be's Blue Jean
-----Ohio Valley Blue Diamond Jimmy HTX
--------------------Nt Ch Smokey River JBS Cheif
---------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Smokey River Chiefs Bl Dancer
--------------------Harlin's OK Blu Punkin
----------Nt Ch Clear River Blue Slammer
-------------------Gr Ch Oklahoma Hard Rock
---------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Hefley's Bros KC
--------------------Hefley's Bros. May
PUPS
--------------------Nt Ch Gr Ch Northern Blue Hammer XVII
---------------Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Northern Blue Hammer XVIII
--------------------Ch Northern Blue Missy Ann
----------NGRNCH Gr Nt Ch Treeslammin Blue Hillbilly
--------------------Nt Ch CC Hoosier Stone
---------------Nt Ch Treeslammin Blue Queen
--------------------Mead's Blue Betty
-----Ohio Valley Blue Jade
--------------------Gr Nt Ch Blue Sea Buckwheat
---------------Gr Nt Ch Scott's Blue Thunder
--------------------Gosnell's Blue Susie
---------Ch Mile or More Patch Woods Switch
--------------------Nt Ch Northern Blue Turbo
---------------In-Town's Blue Ice
--------------------Nt Ch Zimmer's Blue Zoe

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Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-12-2013 06:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
I think two of the pups had the crook tails. Only time I've seen that out of Jimmy pups. Always heard that was a something that showed up in the Hammer dogs. Myth or truth?

--------------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Slife's Blue Rambo
---------------Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Smiley's Blue Rambo II
--------------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Smiley's Misti Blue
----------Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Clear River Diamond Jim
--------------------Smokey River Blue Spud
---------------Gr Nt Ch Clear River Curlee
--------------------Nt Ch Smokey River Be's Blue Jean
-----Ohio Valley Blue Diamond Jimmy HTX
--------------------Nt Ch Smokey River JBS Cheif
---------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Smokey River Chiefs Bl Dancer
--------------------Harlin's OK Blu Punkin
----------Nt Ch Clear River Blue Slammer
-------------------Gr Ch Oklahoma Hard Rock
---------------Ch Gr Nt Ch Hefley's Bros KC
--------------------Hefley's Bros. May
PUPS
--------------------Nt Ch Gr Ch Northern Blue Hammer XVII
---------------Gr Nt Ch Gr Ch Northern Blue Hammer XVIII
--------------------Ch Northern Blue Missy Ann
----------NGRNCH Gr Nt Ch Treeslammin Blue Hillbilly
--------------------Nt Ch CC Hoosier Stone
---------------Nt Ch Treeslammin Blue Queen
--------------------Mead's Blue Betty
-----Ohio Valley Blue Jade
--------------------Gr Nt Ch Blue Sea Buckwheat
---------------Gr Nt Ch Scott's Blue Thunder
--------------------Gosnell's Blue Susie
---------Ch Mile or More Patch Woods Switch
--------------------Nt Ch Northern Blue Turbo
---------------In-Town's Blue Ice
--------------------Nt Ch Zimmer's Blue Zoe

I dont want to throw any one breed under the bus like that but I do see that u have sealed some dominant genes and the same line of dogs we are referring too is in ur pups pedigree back in 5th 6th and 7th generations. Look im not saying that their bad pups that have this trait. Just hard to have a stud dog with a hook tail. Matter of fact every one ive hunted was a super duper stay put dogs. I used say that hook in their tail was to dig into the tree cause they weren't moving. Although they didnt tree real hard and had repertoire issues u in the sinus department and as they got older they chewed alot on warmer nights. Not saying that will happen to these pups just my experience with them. Thanks for reading Norm.

Posted by bluetickman2002 on 09-12-2013 07:05 PM:

I don't recall any of my pups from my wezze female having messed up tails in the three crosses I made on her but I have had around 200 dogs and have seen crocked tails in a few blue dogs walkers red bones and English dogs I have owned some where line breed and some where outcrossed everywhere but if I was line breeding and getting a bunch of them I would definatley change something

Posted by southernthunder on 09-12-2013 07:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bluetickman2002
I don't recall any of my pups from my wezze female having messed up tails in the three crosses I made on her but I have had around 200 dogs and have seen crocked tails in a few blue dogs walkers red bones and English dogs I have owned some where line breed and some where outcrossed everywhere but if I was line breeding and getting a bunch of them I would definatley change something

lol I had 2 in Misty's 1st litter

go figure lol..........we own both of them and they are the loudest 2 and out perform the rest in the litter. you can't tell they are even kinked now though

Posted by southernthunder on 09-12-2013 07:31 PM:

Re: Eddie

quote:
Originally posted by BUCKEYE BILLY
It was nice meeting you on the phone the other day. U seem like a smart guy with alot of passion about ur hounds. Im sure ull help better our breed as a whole. Good luck to ya

thanks Norm! i'm glad we are on the same team. we just have to work together more on the future of these hounds we are packing. it was nice meeting you as well. I look forward to future conversations and crosses. thanks for what you have done to help our breed

you have raised and sold some nice hounds.

Posted by Blue Iron on 09-12-2013 07:56 PM:

I've seen crooked tails in all breeds and inbred, linebred and outcrossed pups. Heck saw 2 in one litter that were off a WalkerXRedbone cross. I disagree on it being genetic but if you believe it is that's perfectly fine too.

Posted by BUCKEYE BILLY on 09-12-2013 08:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bluetickman2002
I don't recall any of my pups from my wezze female having messed up tails in the three crosses I made on her but I have had around 200 dogs and have seen crocked tails in a few blue dogs walkers red bones and English dogs I have owned some where line breed and some where outcrossed everywhere but if I was line breeding and getting a bunch of them I would definatley change something

all depends on how the genes match up and witch ones are dominant that passes for generations down the road. I dont know about other breeds but im sure they have some of the same traits. Its just a bad gene sealed on the cross that was made. When u line breed too tight ur going to get more of what u already got. Exspeicaly on dominant dogs. Just like people. u ever go into the public and u see a family and the kids all look just like dad or like mom. Thats ur dominant genes. Go out with a dominant stud or dam with big long beautiful tails and then go back in with more of what u like thats already in ur kennel. Grandfather, granddaughter cross. Takes three generations to do it but its good stuff if done with the right dogs. Thanks for reading Norm

Posted by ov_blues on 09-12-2013 08:32 PM:

The kink or lack thereof in their tail is the least of my concerns. Will they hunt big, get struck quick, drive a track and die on the right tree? Those are my bigger concerns. lol. If I can breed all of that in, I should be able to breed out a crook in the tail. haha.

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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by southernthunder on 09-12-2013 08:37 PM:

lol both of my gyps had pups with kink tails and both were from the same sire (half sisters). I used the same stud dog I breed both of those gyps to on other gyps without any problems.

I think I will call my next one Kinky lol

Posted by BIG$BLUES on 09-12-2013 08:47 PM:

Re: Eddie

quote:
Originally posted by BUCKEYE BILLY
It was nice meeting you on the phone the other day. U seem like a smart guy with alot of passion about ur hounds. Im sure ull help better our breed as a whole. Good luck to ya

You got the wool pulled over his eyes Eddie lol

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