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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-26-2013 07:35 PM:

Great Rule Debate

Okay guys 3 dog cast.

All 3 are released and struck in.

1 Dog is treed 2 are still trailing.

Cast begins to shine the tree and another dog is declared treed. The 5 is up so the handler asks to go handle his dog judge agrees. When he leaves there was a minute left in the shine time on the first tree. The tree was bare and had no leaves. One guy now says he found a hole and another says no that's not a hole. The guy that left now finds out a hole was said to be seen by one. How can he vote if he didn't stay to sine the entirE 10 minutes


If your the judge what do you do with the dogs tree?

__________________
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Posted by john Duemmer on 06-26-2013 07:39 PM:

In this case the voteing majority is 2 so based on weather or not he sees a hole the judge becomes the tie breaker.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside


Posted by Paul Frederick on 06-26-2013 07:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
In this case the voteing majority is 2 so based on weather or not he sees a hole the judge becomes the tie breaker.


Incorrect in many different ways.

Rule 3 (Points Will Be Plus) (a) When dogs strike and tree and coon is seen: (1) by a non-hunting Judge, or (2) by a majority of the cast when hunting Judge is used.

Rule 4 (Points Will Be Minus) (b) When dogs tree and (1) a non-hunting judge or (2) a majority of the cast when hunting Judge is used, can plainly see no coon is there.

No where in either of those rules do you read "majority of cast that at tree" it is always "majority of cast."

The first thing to deal with is handler #3 going to handle his dog that is now treed. The Judge can request the handler stay with the cast to score tree, especially if very little time is left in the cast.

Next you have the scoring of the tree. Handler #3 is now going to have to vote based on what he saw in the tree whether to plus, minus, or circle the tree, even though he did not stay for the entire shine time. How he votes will likely decide how the tree is scored since the other two are split on their decision.

Lastly (about John's comment) a hunting Judge is never NEVER EVER the tie-breaker in a scoring situation. A clear majority must be reached every single time, without exception. In three situations you must always have a cast vote: scoring trees, whether or not to call timeout, and whether dogs have returned to previously scored trees. In all three of those instances you must have a majority vote and the judge's vote carries no more weight than any other cast member.

__________________
Paul Frederick
319-371-6362


Posted by john Duemmer on 06-26-2013 08:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Frederick
Incorrect in many different ways.

Rule 3 (Points Will Be Plus) (a) When dogs strike and tree and coon is seen: (1) by a non-hunting Judge, or (2) by a majority of the cast when hunting Judge is used.

Rule 4 (Points Will Be Minus) (b) When dogs tree and (1) a non-hunting judge or (2) a majority of the cast when hunting Judge is used, can plainly see no coon is there.

No where in either of those rules do you read "majority of cast that at tree" it is always "majority of cast."

The first thing to deal with is handler #3 going to handle his dog that is now treed. The Judge does not have to let that handler go handle the dog. In this case it would have been a good idea for the Judge to tell the handler to stay with the cast until the tree was scored.

Next you have the scoring of the tree. Handler #3 is now going to have to vote based on what he saw in the tree whether to plus, minus, or circle the tree, even though he did not stay for the entire shine time. How he votes will likely decide how the tree is scored since the other two are split on their decision.

Lastly (about John's comment) a hunting Judge is never NEVER EVER the tie-breaker in a scoring situation. A clear majority must be reached every single time, without exception. In three situations you must always have a cast vote: scoring trees, whether or not to call timeout, and whether dogs have returned to previously scored trees. In all three of those instances you must have a majority vote and the judge's vote carries no more weight than any other cast member.



So Paul what you are saying is that if only 3 cast members are present to score a tree that they would have to all vote the same to form a majority?
With 3 scoreing a tree, 1 votes circle, 1 votes minus, and the judge being the 3rd voteing member present, that his vote does not decide the outcome?
Rule 11 also says that handlers WILL be given permision to go handle dogs that are split, it says nothing about the judge being able to deny a handlers request to go.

And it certainly seems to me that anytime a hunting judge votes in a 3 dog cast where the other 2 hunters have voted circle and minus that he will be the tie breaker.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside


Posted by groworg1 on 06-26-2013 08:06 PM:

circle


Posted by Paul Frederick on 06-26-2013 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
So Paul what you are saying is that if only 3 cast members are present to score a tree that they would have to all vote the same to form a majority?
With 3 scoreing a tree, 1 votes circle, 1 votes minus, and the judge being the 3rd voteing member present, that his vote does not decide the outcome?



Yes, John, I am. Where is the rules does it say "majority of those present"? You need to read "Majority of cast or majority of those present" pg 24 of The Advisor.

In this instance handler #3 was not the Judge but he will be the tie breaker for the simple fact that we already have a 1-1 vote. If he decides to vote totally different from the first two then there will be no majority. It all comes down to how he is going to vote. I can't tell you how this tree should be scored because I don't know how #3 voted.

__________________
Paul Frederick
319-371-6362


Posted by JiM on 06-26-2013 08:22 PM:

Paul, according to rule 11, you are wrong that a judge can deny permission to handle a dog at a closed tree.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.


Posted by groworg1 on 06-26-2013 08:24 PM:

many cast end up with only 2 dogs before the two hours are up with one being the judge and the other a cast member so all trees that aren't agreed on to plus minus or circle become circle the handler that had to go to his dog lost his vote on that tree by leaving early I agree with paul that the cast should remain together but the rules do state a handler has the right to go to his dog after the 5 is up look at this way its no different then a 2 to 2 vote but I maybe wrong I have been many times before


Posted by Dale Young on 06-26-2013 08:25 PM:

If he didn't see the hole before he left. ( and never returned ) I only see one way he could vote.


Posted by Paul Frederick on 06-26-2013 08:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Paul, according to rule 11, you are wrong that a judge can deny permission to handle a dog at a closed tree.


JiM,

You are correct, I was mistaken. I thought the rule said permission may be granted, not permission will be granted. An honest mistake but it does not change this situation; handler #3 will still have to vote on what he or she saw in this tree for a majority to be reached.

__________________
Paul Frederick
319-371-6362


Posted by Paul Frederick on 06-26-2013 08:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer

And it certainly seems to me that anytime a hunting judge votes in a 3 dog cast where the other 2 hunters have voted circle and minus that he will be the tie breaker.



It is very frustrating when you add stuff to your post after it's been responded to.

Yes, he would be the tie breaker if he was handler #3 but in this instance, he was not. Read the situation again. He would only be the tie-breaker because he hasn't weighed in on a 3 dog cast, not because he's the judge.

Again, totally irrelevant because the judge was not the one who went to tie his dog at the separate tree.

__________________
Paul Frederick
319-371-6362


Posted by Charles Pullen on 06-26-2013 08:44 PM:

Paul , I thought during the shine time , the judge can keep you there even if yours is split until that 1st tree is scored .


Posted by groworg1 on 06-26-2013 08:47 PM:

so a guy can look at a tree for 30 seconds go to his dog and vote on the tree he left ? am I getting this right !


Posted by john Duemmer on 06-26-2013 08:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
so a guy can look at a tree for 30 seconds go to his dog and vote on the tree he left ? am I getting this right !


Apparently,I had always believed that 3 cast members could remain and score a tree but Paul says no.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 06-26-2013 09:01 PM:

Since a handler cannot be denyed the right to handle his dog on a closed split tree, the only alternative that i see would be to stop shne time while the handler went to handle his dog and then to resume shinetime when he returns. Otherwise he is not present at the tee to vote.

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Posted by patches9452 on 06-26-2013 09:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Apparently,I had always believed that 3 cast members could remain and score a tree but Paul says no.
they can as long as they all vote the same... its a big gamble tho


Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-26-2013 09:30 PM:

I don't see how one could vote without staying the entire 10 minutes. What if a coon was found? What it off game was seen after he left? My Point of this was to be aware of these things. A slick handler will quickly rid of a cast member in this situation to avoid getting minused. He knows once a 3 dog cast becomes 2 in this situation both are going to have to vote to minus the tree. Just something to be aware of.

__________________
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Grand Nite Ch HOF PKC Silver Ch Heatseaker Unleash the Kraken(Grand at 15 months old) BBOA Overall 1st place X2, Tournament of Champions Finalist, National Bluetic Days overall winner, Autumn Oaks Grand 16x2 PKC SS Semi Finalist PKC State Hunt Final 4 UKC World Top 20
GRNT CH BLUES AMAZING GRACE
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Posted by patches9452 on 06-26-2013 11:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I don't see how one could vote without staying the entire 10 minutes. What if a coon was found? What it off game was seen after he left? My Point of this was to be aware of these things. A slick handler will quickly rid of a cast member in this situation to avoid getting minused. He knows once a 3 dog cast becomes 2 in this situation both are going to have to vote to minus the tree. Just something to be aware of.
stop shine time until the other gets back... problem solved


Posted by josh on 06-26-2013 11:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I don't see how one could vote without staying the entire 10 minutes. What if a coon was found? What it off game was seen after he left? My Point of this was to be aware of these things. A slick handler will quickly rid of a cast member in this situation to avoid getting minused. He knows once a 3 dog cast becomes 2 in this situation both are going to have to vote to minus the tree. Just something to be aware of.


I dont see the issue here...

It dosent take 10 minnutes to score most trees, you vote according to what you saw....pretty simple.

These slick handlers must be getting better......Now, they are able to get the other guys dog to tree to keep him from voting......

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 06-26-2013 11:26 PM:

Sounds to me like you all are trying to make something out of nothing.

If I shine your tree for 9 minutes and don't find any evidence of a coon or a place of refuge, I know how I am going to vote at the end of 10 minutes unless you point out something to me that I missed. I have seen lots of guys shine for a while and stand and kick their toe in the dirt for the rest of the shine time....yet we don't complain when they vote at the end of shine time.

The bottom line is this..It does indeed take a majority of the cast to score a tree. And the handler that left doesn't simply have the option of "not voting". He has to vote to score the tree based on the 9 minutes of shining that he did. If he did not see the hole, then his vote should be simple....minus. Just because he left early to handle his dog should not change his vote...

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels


Posted by GA DAWG on 06-27-2013 12:49 AM:

Whys everyone so quick to always wanna go handle their dog anyhow? Im usually pretty sure mines staying whether its 10 min or 2 hours. You don't wanna feel cheated. Stay with the cast. Specially with a couple min shine time left lol.

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Posted by JiM on 06-27-2013 01:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Whys everyone so quick to always wanna go handle their dog anyhow? Im usually pretty sure mines staying whether its 10 min or 2 hours. You don't wanna feel cheated. Stay with the cast. Specially with a couple min shine time left lol.


You make a good point. How we handle these things in the woods is not always the same way we answer them on this board.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.


Posted by mauser06 on 06-27-2013 02:18 AM:

Only time I go to my dog is if he was treed and we are walking...I don't want him treeing a half hour while we score other trees...


I will declare my dog treed right about the time the judge pulls the card out to leash lock the cast...but in this scenerio they treed the dog and shined for 5...great....but at that point I'd say he needs to stay...there is less than 5 mins left....I agree most all trees can be scored appropriately within 5 mins...but right now, leaves on, I've shined much more than 5 and found the coon...we allhave..that guy that left would think the other 2 are cheating when they say yep he had the coon...he shined for 5mins and as soon as he leaves they find it...would just smell fishy...but the rule says he can go to his dog....he would have to vote based on what he saw....



Interesting scenerio....I'm not leaving a tree to let 2 guys score it...

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-27-2013 03:14 AM:

my entire point was what would ukc rule on a question like this. 1 left the cast while shine time still remained so what does ukc say on his vote? In my opinion he left his right to vote when he went and handled his hound. all you need in a 3 dog cast is 2 so when one says circle and one says minus what would ukc rule?

__________________
Grand Nite Ch PKC CH(3) Main Street Blueberry Jam(Autumn Oaks Final 4 Grand Nite Ch 2015) UKC world finalist 2017 Ohio State Ch 2018
Grand Nite Ch(4) PKC Silver CH Main Street Blue SS quarterfinalist 2018. Autumn Oaks Grand 16 2018. Senior Showdown semifinalists 2020. UKC top 25 World hunt 2020. PKC quarterfinalist 2020
Grand Nite Ch HOF PKC Silver Ch Heatseaker Unleash the Kraken(Grand at 15 months old) BBOA Overall 1st place X2, Tournament of Champions Finalist, National Bluetic Days overall winner, Autumn Oaks Grand 16x2 PKC SS Semi Finalist PKC State Hunt Final 4 UKC World Top 20
GRNT CH BLUES AMAZING GRACE
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567-231-7413


Posted by groworg1 on 06-27-2013 03:34 AM:

sure are a lot of 2 hour maniacs and the sad part there the ones holding the card most of the time ! a moh is not going to listen to the first tree was voted on at the second tree crap and this cast would be lucky if he doesn't scratch the whole cast !


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