UKC Forums - UKC/Teaching Bench Show Judges?

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-24-2013 08:42 PM:

UKC/Teaching Bench Show Judges?

I guess I raised some delicate issues on judging.

That said in the past I have never refused to help anyone that asked for tips on showing their dogs and have many times volunteered help without solicitation.

Now I would like to ask others opinions how they feel about and UKC what the possibility is reinstating the seminars Mr Cavanaugh use to have at AO on judging?
In the past several months other judges and I have discussed how helpful the past seminars were in improving our understanding of judging dogs and movement .All persons including myself had positive experiences with the seminars we attended.
What is the possibility of these seminars?
What is the possibility of a guideline to judging dogs video be filmed on DVD to be sold for a minimal cost to persons wishing to broaden their knowledge as to understand proper form ,angulations,and standards among the 7 breeds?
It would certainly be helpful to both judges and new exhibitors.
I myself am always looking to improve my knowledge and would like to see the seminars held again.
If a DVD is cost prohibitive ,how about a video made available on the main board .(Hey there is a book published on nite hunt rules 2nd edition already)
Myself I feel that visual aides are easier to understand when they are actually showing the movement rather than still pictures.

How do you all feel about either one?

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Posted by Cleo on 05-24-2013 08:54 PM:

I wish they would have a hands ~ on class as well. I wanted to do something like this at 2014 Grand American for the exhibitors as well as the youth. Just don't know when and who or how many judges to ask to help.

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Posted by Cynthia on 05-24-2013 08:56 PM:

I think UKC needs to provide some guidance and knowledge for the judges to help them select the best dog presented to them on that day. Many of the judges do not like the fact that they have to let the dog gait, after all it is just a bench show, even though it says to gait in the rule book. Just because its one persons opinion, doesnt mean that opinion is always correct.

In order to improve, the tools must be provided so one can begin to improve and gain the knowledge needed to change/improve.

A few years ago at GA, Wayne was talking about having some seminars at the big coonhound events. Did anything come of that or what? I think the time has come to really invest in the BSJ's and future of the bench shows. Exhibitors put a lot of time and work in getting their dogs ready for the shows and deserve to have qualified judges that know the standards and understand what to look for.

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Posted by MCruse on 05-24-2013 08:58 PM:

This sounds like a very good idea. Unfortunately there is no way to teach the masses the same standards. If you put 10 breeders and by breeders I mean those that have been breeding for 20+ years there will be 8 different interpretations of what is correct. It's the same with dogs as in any other sport, the standards are open for interpretation and while many agree there are a lot of dogs out there that fall VERY short of any interpretation, there are as many that see those hounds as acceptable. It's like Democrats and Republicans, when givin the exact same statement you come out with two opposite perceptions. Who would determine what Visual aids to use in such a seminar? You may choose an example that someone else's interpretation is not what we should be teaching. It's unfortunately the sport we are in. There are several hound groups being represented in other kennel clubs that are by standard not that great, but that's the style those people choose to display and there are judges who pick them because that's what they were taught to be correct. It's a never ending cycle and no amount if education will do away with straight rear ends and horrible movement as that's what many like to see in a bench dog. JMO

Posted by MCruse on 05-24-2013 09:30 PM:

You also have to take into consideration the judges used for such teachings. Cleo is right about hands on as there are to many judges that never feel of a dog. If a dog is extremely muscled it can hide a poor shoulder set and the only way to truly determine this is by hands on evaluation. There are several judges in our area that do a VERY good job of evaluating with there hands and eyes. I've won and lost under them but felt they gave a very good evaluation both ways. There are other judges who are well respected, but couldn't evaluate a horse in a field full of sheep. Education is needed but who the teacher is will mean more than who attends. You have certain respected judges that DO NOT need to teach anything they "know"

Posted by shinerunner on 05-24-2013 09:44 PM:

What about going to a 3 judge pannel? I know that acha is doing it... It seems to cut down on the buddy system

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Posted by Cleo on 05-24-2013 09:47 PM:

I am certain the David and the rest of the GA committee would have no problem with there being a Bench Show seminar at the 2014 GA and I will gladly have it worked into the schedule. What about Friday evening? There needs to be a committee of judges that teach this I would think.... Maybe one breeder from each breed. Someone who has the standard down and uses the standard in their breeding program.

If anyone is interested in attending or helping get the right people in order, please let me know! Everyone's opinion is important! I think the kids watching the adults and learning that there is a proper way to do the judging is a good thing. The 2014 GA theme is about kids.

Just a thought.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-25-2013 12:37 AM:

Cleo ,I applaud you for the initiative in attempting to at least give it a try.I for one wish I could participate.

A larger show of this nature is where a video of the dogs that are correct and incorrect in motion and on the bench would be more likely to be accomplished.
Also the open discussion among a few judges in evaluating the dogs would help to make everyone more aware of what they are seeing and how to interpret it.

Mcruse,you are also correct in how various judges see correctness in gaits and angulations differently .I have the hope that a video would help judges to better understand what they are seeing instead of what they believe to be correct.
In return it may help to standardize the way a judge views a dog.

There is so much emphasis given to nite hunts and rule interpretations.
Show persons spend an enormous amount of time and money preparing and traveling to shows.
I am of the belief there also needs to be a standard that show judges adhere to and not just their opinions.

Posted by MCruse on 05-25-2013 01:29 AM:

We have a standard that show judges adhere to. It's the breed standards, we see the results from that. I agree if there were a better way to educate the masses it would be beneficial, but the majority who wish to learn already try. I doubt there is any hope in changing the mass opinion. Unfortunately some of the most incorrect thinking minds hold majority of the power.

Posted by blocksporthound on 05-25-2013 02:45 AM:

Just playing devils advocate because I have asked this question of a lot of people and never really get an answer....what exactly IS bench showing? Is it conformation but simply put up on a bench instead of stacked on the ground? I DO think if you are judging breed standard (conformation ) part of it or 50% of it should be judged on how a dog gaits as form does follow function. What I have seen sometimes seems to be more of a statue contest. If you are judging, and one dog clearly is better conformed but doesn't stand like a statue and a lessor dog does....who wins? I know conformation is supposed to be judging each dog by the standard as potential breeding stock. Is that the purpose of bench showing? I actually don't know so I am throwing it out there. I honestly would like to know the definition of bench showing and what exactly is being judged (standing still/obedience) or strict conformation and how a judge decides on what is a winner. Do dogs/bitches have to be intact? If no then that obviously throws out judging as potential breeding stock. Thanks in advance for any judges that can explain.

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Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-25-2013 03:02 AM:

you guys are hilarous.i learned the rules to basketball,football and baseball and never read a rule book now we all have a rulebook and nobody can read it.what the heck.

Posted by Bob Hennessey on 05-25-2013 03:35 AM:

A while back someone posted pictures (drawings) of conformation of a hound. I can't find it now does anyone know where it was posted or maybe repost it. Thanks.

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Posted by Cleo on 05-25-2013 03:54 AM:

Majestic Hound was the original thread starter I believe.

Posted by R.lee prater on 05-25-2013 01:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shinerunner
What about going to a 3 judge pannel? I know that acha is doing it... It seems to cut down on the buddy system

Let it be a dog show and not a handler show. Then you will see the entry's increase. I see so many handler's that are not true to one breed . Owning 3 or 4 breed's just to impress a certain judge . Think about it and just look. In 40 yrs. what has chanced in the breed standard's except takeing the point system out.

Posted by blocksporthound on 05-25-2013 01:21 PM:

Excellent article!

http://astanagsd.tripod.com/id18.html

This article I found has a great way of explaining things! I bookmarked it!

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Posted by HistoryNutt on 05-25-2013 04:02 PM:

???

quote:
Originally posted by R.lee prater
Let it be a dog show and not a handler show. Then you will see the entry's increase. I see so many handler's that are not true to one breed . Owning 3 or 4 breed's just to impress a certain judge . Think about it and just look. In 40 yrs. what has changed in the breed standard's except taking the point system out.

???

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Posted by Cleo on 05-25-2013 04:18 PM:

I'm not "true to one breed " and its definitely not to impress anyone. Oh wait.....I'm not a handler either.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-25-2013 04:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blocksporthound
Just playing devils advocate because I have asked this question of a lot of people and never really get an answer....what exactly IS bench showing? Is it conformation but simply put up on a bench instead of stacked on the ground? I DO think if you are judging breed standard (conformation ) part of it or 50% of it should be judged on how a dog gaits as form does follow function. What I have seen sometimes seems to be more of a statue contest. If you are judging, and one dog clearly is better conformed but doesn't stand like a statue and a lessor dog does....who wins? I know conformation is supposed to be judging each dog by the standard as potential breeding stock. Is that the purpose of bench showing? I actually don't know so I am throwing it out there. I honestly would like to know the definition of bench showing and what exactly is being judged (standing still/obedience) or strict conformation and how a judge decides on what is a winner. Do dogs/bitches have to be intact? If no then that obviously throws out judging as potential breeding stock. Thanks in advance for any judges that can explain.

I have always viewed a show as a judging of a dogs comformation and correctness to its particular breed standard. Just because a dog stands like a statue does not mean it shall win when I am judging a show.I would have to say the term "bench" is used because that is how the dogs are presented.
I always felt the removal of the point system was a
dis-service .When I was learning about showing ,for me it helped me to understand the importance of the particular parts of the dog because of the points assigned to each part.

Part of the problem at the local events is the majority of dogs either do not gait or stand when benched.Therefore it creates a problem to properly evaluate .The procedure for most judges is to fall back to the dogs they can evaluate.

Posted by Pat Bizich on 05-25-2013 04:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
you guys are hilarous.i learned the rules to basketball,football and baseball and never read a rule book now we all have a rulebook and nobody can read it.what the heck.

Sorry I don't get the joke.
This is about getting more imfo to the judges that don't understand what they are looking at.
lt is about all the people that are still picking post legged ,short gaited dogs ,with improper angulation .
If you know it all already, good for you.
I myself am always open to learning.
The rule book does not include pictues of dogs in motion nor proper angulations.

I have a question?If you learned all the rules to basketball ,football,and baseball and never read a book.HOW do you know that what you learned was the correct rules?
One you either learned from others that may have been teaching you the rules incorrectly or two you learned from a coach or other expert that taught you the correct rules.Most likely they learned from a rule book.

Now correlate this to judging dogs.
If you apprentice under judges that were not teaching you the correct way to evaluate a dog.Or you even watched several shows that the judges were not properly evaluating dogs because they were not knowledgable.You would begin to believe they are right in the dogs they select.
Do you see what I am saying?

Posted by R.lee prater on 05-25-2013 04:48 PM:

Meeting Standard's

Year's ago when a hunting dog showed againt a pretty slick house dog the hunting dog almost away's won. What chanced judgeing not standard's.

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 05-26-2013 12:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Pat Bizich
Sorry I don't get the joke.
This is about getting more imfo to the judges that don't understand what they are looking at.
lt is about all the people that are still picking post legged ,short gaited dogs ,with improper angulation .
If you know it all already, good for you.
I myself am always open to learning.
The rule book does not include pictues of dogs in motion nor proper angulations.

I have a question?If you learned all the rules to basketball ,football,and baseball and never read a book.HOW do you know that what you learned was the correct rules?
One you either learned from others that may have been teaching you the rules incorrectly or two you learned from a coach or other expert that taught you the correct rules.Most likely they learned from a rule book.

Now correlate this to judging dogs.
If you apprentice under judges that were not teaching you the correct way to evaluate a dog.Or you even watched several shows that the judges were not properly evaluating dogs because they were not knowledgable.You would begin to believe they are right in the dogs they select.
Do you see what I am saying?

wouldnt it be cheaper to hire reps?How many of your shows or akc,pkc?now whos dog or talking about rip apart in conference room.

Posted by Doug Bowers on 05-26-2013 02:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by shinerunner
What about going to a 3 judge pannel? I know that acha is doing it... It seems to cut down on the buddy system

Thats good. but sometimes that dont work either. I said sometime.
but thats the way it should be. at least in the bigger shows.

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Posted by hotshot630 on 05-26-2013 04:15 AM:

I agree with the seminars,

Education is always good for all stake holders. I wish for something like this for a while. Espically showing black and tans a lot of judges don't understand that the breed standard for black and tans are tight footed not cat pawed, I have been told by several different judges that I lost because my black dog wouldn't stand cat pawed and I showed them the standard and most of the response I have gotten was never realized it said that. So yeah seminars would help educate people on little things like this. A dog should be judged to it's standard, but the judge has to know what the actual standard is and judge the dogs for the best dog meeting the standards of it's breed,

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Posted by Cleo on 05-26-2013 11:47 AM:

It would be a very good learning tool. There are different KC judges that are asked to judge in Ukc shows and even if the standard is just SLIGHTLY different between KC's it is still different. I don't think this post was started to cause any kind of commotion its an open discussion for thoughts on this.

I hope we can get something together for the Grand American. I've been told by several no one would be interested. I have a few very knowledgeable BS judges that have said they'd help already. I guess I will get with them this week. I am not going to do anything to waste their time that's for sure.

Posted by RACII1174 on 05-26-2013 04:39 PM:

UKC SHOULD MAKE DVD's FOR EVERY EVENT NOT JUST BENCH SHOWS EDUCATING HANDLER'S, JUDGES AND MOH

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