UKC Forums - Rule ? How far is too far?

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Posted by Kursch Hounds on 04-06-2013 07:39 PM:

Rule ? How far is too far?

So I have a female that got minused points in a hunt for greeting us off the tree the judge said that she came too far off the tree. This is word for word what the rule book says:

"Dog should not be minused tree points if he comes back a short distance to meet handler if dog goes back in and trees satisfactorily."

I'm not complaining just trying to get my facts straight. I told the judge that the rules did not say how far she was allowed to greet us he said it was too far and he had made his decision.

So my question is how far is a short distance?

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Posted by LIL-E on 04-06-2013 07:44 PM:

This in my opinion all depends on who is holding the score card. What is not to far to you might be for others.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-06-2013 07:48 PM:

I have a female that likes to greet when something covers and 9 out of 10. Judges will minus you if your dog comes off the tree more then 6 or 8 feet. It's a flat joke but it is what it is.

if you dont break your hound prepare to do a lot of arguing. And no MOH will overturn a judges ruling in the woods on a meet and greet tree call.

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Posted by VA BLUEDOGS on 04-06-2013 08:33 PM:

tree

In my book I don't like em pull in at all . But if a dog stays under the canopy of the tree that's acceptable. I tell ya what makes a lot of dogs pull and I don't like it, is when people are shining there lights at the dogs from 200 yards away. In my book if there light hits that tree they should be minused.

Posted by mauser06 on 04-06-2013 08:58 PM:

Hunted with a dog last night that would run towards us as soon as she seen us....judge let it go....I would have min used her personally...there were a few times that if she was the only dog there you wouldn't have known shat tree she was on...that's excessive....I can see a few feet...but there's no reason IMO forms dog to run off a tree...I rather have to fight mine to get in off a tree than have it run off of it..

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Posted by VA BLUEDOGS on 04-06-2013 09:43 PM:

tree

Yea I've seen em pull off 100 ft and bark to the ground and still not get minused. I like mine to have tunnel vision to the heavens! Haha

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-06-2013 10:15 PM:

You both are FLAT WRONG. Canopy? LOL where's that at in the rules? You guys just make the rules as you see them huh?

Posted by JiM on 04-06-2013 10:18 PM:

Re: Rule ? How far is too far?

quote:
Originally posted by Kursch Hounds
So I have a female that got minused points in a hunt for greeting us off the tree the judge said that she came too far off the tree. This is word for word what the rule book says:

"Dog should not be minused tree points if he comes back a short distance to meet handler if dog goes back in and trees satisfactorily."

I'm not complaining just trying to get my facts straight. I told the judge that the rules did not say how far she was allowed to greet us he said it was too far and he had made his decision.

So my question is how far is a short distance?

Your judge handled it exactly as the Advisor suggests. It is a judgement call and it is up to the judge to decide if the dog came back too far. UKC specifically states that there is no specified distance, it is a judges decision.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-06-2013 10:36 PM:

Weak loose tree dogs is what it boils down to. Whip that tail during the week and make it not meet you anymore. Then you want get minused. Pretty simple fix. Saves a lot of crying for future minuses your going to get.

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Posted by joey on 04-06-2013 10:40 PM:

It is the judge’s decision and when I’m the judge I handle it like this. If I can see the dog treed as I’m walking in and it comes to us and goes back then there is not a problem. If it comes off far enough that I didn’t see it on the tree then it is minused. Simple really.

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Posted by Fred Harroun on 04-06-2013 10:43 PM:

Jim is right page 36 of the advisor explains it all.judgement call

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-06-2013 10:59 PM:

How or why guys judging think this is difficult is beyond me. if you see a hound coming off a tree as the judge STOP right there for a few seconds. If the dog goes right back to the tree score it. if its all over minus it and nobody will be mad because the rule was carried out to its fullest.

A smart dog will be off the tree when there's 3 or 4 dogs in the tree.

Posted by VA BLUEDOGS on 04-06-2013 10:59 PM:

canopy

I didn't say the canopy was the rule. I said if I'm judgin they better not come out from under it. This is one of the few grey area rules. His far is too far for you Hoosier man? 100 yards???

Posted by joey on 04-06-2013 11:10 PM:

How far is too far? If I cant see what tree it left to come to me it is to far. If I can see it on a tree and it comes to me then goes strait back, then ok.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 04-06-2013 11:10 PM:

Re: canopy

quote:
Originally posted by VA BLUEDOGS
I didn't say the canopy was the rule. I said if I'm judgin they better not come out from under it. This is one of the few grey area rules. His far is too far for you Hoosier man? 100 yards???

Haha canopy is a horrible way to do it. I guess when the dogs tree on a sapling with a coon they better not even hit the ground with their 2 front feet.

And later in the cast when they tree on a huge oak tree they can be 20 or 30 feet off it. Get my point? I'm not trying to argue with you just trying to get you to see canopy is not a good way of doing it.

Posted by Kursch Hounds on 04-06-2013 11:12 PM:

Advisor not sure what that is?

Yeah it is an easy enough fix just wanted to see what others thought of the issue I think the rule is kind of a joke!!!!! I broke her from it last year by tying her back and not letting her fight a few then she will stand on the wood. She has always been a far better track dog than tree which suits me just fine. I have owned far too many "tree dogs". I am done with tree happy fools!!!!! This is the first time she was off the chain since last fall I knew that there may be an issue the hunting was miserable due to the weather and people running after their dogs in a foot plus snow up giant hills. Not really sure why people seem to think that they have to jog to their hounds??????

So my ruling on the issue is that the rule needs to be rewritten!!! Because I heard a different explanation of the rule from everyone that gave input. People like to make up their own rules and interpret them to benefit the hound they are currently hunting. How they interpret the rules changes like the leaves each fall. The rule needs to me more clearly written.

I'll fix the problem and let my hound do the winning. If you see my Kennel name in front of a titled dog its because its a coon dog and not from slick handling! I will also volunteer to keep the score card in my hand in the future.

Posted by GA DAWG on 04-06-2013 11:15 PM:

Hey Hoosier. I don't think its the ones judging that's having the problems with it. Its those with loose tree dogs that's got the problem. I mean a judge can minus it. You or they can question it. Surely to goodness a cast full if hunters just seeing a dog meet a hunter wouldn't uphold the minus. Course we've been all through this before on here.

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Posted by VA BLUEDOGS on 04-06-2013 11:37 PM:

tree

If a dog is doin something questionable most of the time the other cast members are gonna have something to say bout it too.

Posted by Kursch Hounds on 04-06-2013 11:48 PM:

Well I didn't figure it was worth questioning being I had first tree and was about to be leading the cast. There was a kid on his first hunt ever, the judge and another gentleman that was going to be in third we all know how that vote would have went. Anyway didn't start this to thread to wine about my dog getting minused just wanted some input on others interpretation of the rule. It is my own fault for not having her better prepared and the call would not have had to be made. Happy Hunting to all!

Also thanks to those that mentioned the Advisor I just found it and ordered myself one!

Posted by Joe~mcavoy on 04-07-2013 01:16 AM:

20 maybe 30 yards max anymore than that probably should minus them

Posted by perry co cooner on 04-07-2013 09:58 AM:

Re: Re: Rule ? How far is too far?

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Your judge handled it exactly as the Advisor suggests. It is a judgement call and it is up to the judge to decide if the dog came back too far. UKC specifically states that there is no specified distance, it is a judges decision.

Would making it a clear cut rule make things too difficult? There is A LOT of disparity in judges opinions. edpecially if the judges dog is behind the dog coming to greet. A rule is a rule so there no getting around it but I think UKC could easily make this rule more cut and dried to prevent any arguments. For real the easiest thing to do was just minuse the dog if it leaves the tree.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 04-07-2013 02:03 PM:

How can you make it more cut and dried. What would yall suggest? I saw one once get minused for it. Then it went back to a tree it wasn't even on to start with lol. Then he handled it on the other tree without judge telling him to. Guess what happened next lol.

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Posted by JiM on 04-07-2013 02:43 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Rule ? How far is too far?

quote:
Originally posted by perry co cooner
Would making it a clear cut rule make things too difficult? There is A LOT of disparity in judges opinions. edpecially if the judges dog is behind the dog coming to greet. A rule is a rule so there no getting around it but I think UKC could easily make this rule more cut and dried to prevent any arguments. For real the easiest thing to do was just minuse the dog if it leaves the tree.

Al, UKC explained in the Advisor that they never want that distance to be specific and they especially don't want to ever use a number because as soon as you state any kind of specific distance, you then require the judge to start carrying a tape measure or stepping off distance and they do not want that to ever happen.
Much of judging a cast is about the judge being honest, having integrity and using good judgement. Do all of them? NO! But we have a cast questioning system that should keep things straight and honest.
Look fellas, if a judge makes a call that is purely designed to help him win the cast, there are 3 others guys standing there(or 2 on a 3 dog cast) that can absolutely overrule and correct that judge. If those 3 guys stand there with their hands in their pockets and do nothing, they get the exactly the kind of cast they deserve.

Posted by Rocketman55 on 04-07-2013 03:09 PM:

Joey, I like the way you handle it the best of anything I've see on here. And that is how I try to handle it too. Great advice!!

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Posted by Rich S on 04-07-2013 03:11 PM:

Fair Enough

quote:
Originally posted by joey
How far is too far? If I cant see what tree it left to come to me it is to far. If I can see it on a tree and it comes to me then goes strait back, then ok.

That's about as fair as it gets and should be the written rule.

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