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Rule Seminars

With all the rules questions on here I think it would be a good idea if the local clubs would get together and have some rules seminars. Several clubs within a close radius could host one. Have several MOH's there and have an open question forum. The clubs could have meal and it would give people the chance to ask questions and get them answered so they would know how to handle them in the woods. I would also like to see a written test given to those who like to judge. A scenerio based test with a judge certification given after passing. The test would be free and could be given at one of these seminars. This would allow clubs to know who is capable of judging and not just give the card to anybody with a watch and pencil. Just an idea because it seems that UKC is hunted in more than the other registries but has more questions and arguments than any of the other registries.

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
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Brian Teague 252-649-3050

we kinda of do that on our buddy hunts at wilkes county coon club it helps everybody understand the rules and really helps the younger and newer to the sport!!!!

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Robby Anderson
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That's the best idea I've heard yet on this entire site and since I've started looking on here. Great idea, I'm going to bring that up at our next meeting. Great for beginners and for people that think they know the rules.

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Only bad thing is. Just like on here. 10 will say its one way and 10 another. We'd have to call Jim....

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Michael Ghorley

Seems like the most argued rules are the most common simple rules. I think training and clarification is the root of learning. If people were certified judges then there would be less arguing. Most of the problem is people don't want to learn for themselves they want to listen to a friend of a friend of a friend who has been in two hunts as a spectator who don't know anything.

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

Re: Rule Seminars

quote:

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Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
With all the rules questions on here I think it would be a good idea if the local clubs would get together and have some rules seminars. Several clubs within a close radius could host one. Have several MOH's there and have an open question forum. The clubs could have meal and it would give people the chance to ask questions and get them answered so they would know how to handle them in the woods. I would also like to see a written test given to those who like to judge. A scenerio based test with a judge certification given after passing. The test would be free and could be given at one of these seminars. This would allow clubs to know who is capable of judging and not just give the card to anybody with a watch and pencil. Just an idea because it seems that UKC is hunted in more than the other registries but has more questions and arguments than any of the other registries.

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one sure sign you want judge at our club is to say you want to judge... sounds like you have an ulterior motive when you do that to me... judges are to be picked by the club for their knowledge of the rules... not by who wants too

Tim, I usually agree with Jim but I don't see this as a means to prevent cheaters. It is a means to educate those who may be confused about the rules. I do agree that a tough skin is important but cheaters will try to cheat regardless and this would give those people who complain a way to educate themselves. It is not hard to place blame when the person is ignorant about the rules. Yes, it would be hard to do but it is the way the sport is progressing.

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
one sure sign you want judge at our club is to say you want to judge... sounds like you have an ulterior motive when you do that to me... judges are to be picked by the club for their knowledge of the rules... not by who wants too

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

you are never going to stop cheaters from cheating but my point was with the seminars and judges passing test and such... it will be harder for people like myself who is fairly new to the comp side of the sport from having the wool pulled over my eyes... that is what I was saying wasn't saying that you would stop cheaters from cheating but if everyone is on the same page then it would be harder for cheaters... but we basically have the same ideas about rule meetings... test for judges.. and so forth... and like you have I have looked for JiM's comments on subjects also...

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Toler's Kanawha River Kennels

Home of:
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' LB Red Hot Sweat "Rock" HTX (R.I.P ROCK, 1/27/13)
Former Home of PKC CH AKC CGN GRNITECH CH 'PR' Toler's TriColor Taz
2013 UKC World Qualified
2013 PKC World Qualified
2013/2014 AKC World Qualified
2013 WV State AKC Champion
2014 Ohio State AKC Champion
2014 WV State AKC Youth Champion

PROUD SUPPORTER OF:
E-TOWN KENNELS & SUPPLY
http://www.etownkennelssupply.com/default.html

Tim, it sounds like we are on the same page and I think a lot of others feel the same way. Get enough people on board and the boat can be rowed faster.

__________________
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

quote:

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Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
What better way to know if a person is qualified to judge than them being able to produce certification. I am a LEO and have a book full of certifications I have to be able to show at the drop of a hat in court to prove I am capable of running equipment or tests or apply the law in the right manner. Why not hold a few of these seminars and see how they go.

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I have seen people from outside the local club walk up and turn there registration in and be asked if they wanted to judge or guide.. and they can either say yes or no... regardless how knowlegable they are of the rules... and how would the person laying out the casts to know that persons knowledge lever? but with the certification the person would know that they at least meet a certain standard..

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Toler's Kanawha River Kennels

Home of:
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' LB Red Hot Sweat "Rock" HTX (R.I.P ROCK, 1/27/13)
Former Home of PKC CH AKC CGN GRNITECH CH 'PR' Toler's TriColor Taz
2013 UKC World Qualified
2013 PKC World Qualified
2013/2014 AKC World Qualified
2013 WV State AKC Champion
2014 Ohio State AKC Champion
2014 WV State AKC Youth Champion

PROUD SUPPORTER OF:
E-TOWN KENNELS & SUPPLY
http://www.etownkennelssupply.com/default.html

being asked if you would or could is a whole lot different to me than someone coming up and saying i want to judge...

When I was hitting the hunts hard I was asked to judge a lot at clubs where nobody really knew anything about me. When I would be MOH at a hunt I would always ask the club members about judges if I was unfamiliar with anyone. Selecting a judge should be just as important as who is chosen to be MOH or bench show judge. Integrity of the club can hinge on the selection of one bad judge. Being certified takes some of the liability off of the clubs.

__________________
"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

Btt

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050

Very good post!! I was just talking to Paul Fredrick last week about addressing this.......UKC needs to implement something like this and the clubs need to get together and make something like this happen! There are more people that have quit going to the hunts because they THOUGHT they were cheated.....in reality they just DONT KNOW THE RULES. There are alot of rules that were "expanded on and madeup" and handed down from generation to generation that are SO misleading and have cause tons of confusion and loss of good hunters!! It would be amazing the % of people that THOUGHT they were cheated that really wasnt.......And how many people do they tell about how they got cheated and wont ever go back that also decide to never go or take their kids to a hunt???????

A couple that I STILL HEAR..........

1. Canopy of the tree: dogs can do about anything under the "canopy" and not be minused. WRONG.

2. If the trees "touch" and the coon is in the next tree you plus! WRONG.....no where in the rules does it say this....NOR DOES IT SAY THEY HAVE TO TOUCH to plus a coon in the next tree!

quote:

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Originally posted by CHRIS SUTTON


A couple that I STILL HEAR..........

1. Canopy of the tree: dogs can do about anything under the "canopy" and not be minused. WRONG.

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__________________
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First off there is no "canopy" rule......But alot of people still think that a dog can be treed in and working the ground (not showing treed) and not be minused.....because its under the canopy.

And im not finding "this" anywhere......Im saying its NOT in the rules but people have used this for years to not take minus.

Just for the sake of discussion, not taking minus for what?

I recall a discussion with one of the guys up at Kalamazoo that basically went like this. The only thing they can be minused for is not barking at least once every two minutes and for leaving the tree. And if another dog is called at that tree, only one of them has to bark so the other dog don't even have to be barking. The only thing left that can get them minused is leaving the tree. So.....if a dog is under the canopy of the tree, can it be considered to have left that tree?


Anymore, I just figure if the dog is in a position where , as the judge, I would order that dog handled at the tree, then it hasn't left. If that dog is not in a position where he should be handled for being at the tree, then he isn't at the tree and has left. That's when I minus for leaving.
Just for the sake of discussion........

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AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

#1: Dogs are declared treed but when cast arrives one dog is off tree with head on the ground opening but is still under canopy of the tree.
#2:Say the tree is on a creek bank and the dog is in the creek doing the same thing as I mentioned above. Dog is declares treed but not showing tree and is opening on the ground so it is minused.
#3: Dog is standing 20 feet off tree barking at cast as they arrive and does not show the tree with the other dogs. The dog was given a chance to return to tree. I had these scenerios happen to me on nite hunts and they were minused. Handlers argues the "canopy" theory. Regardless they took minus.

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
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Brian Teague 252-649-3050

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Just for the sake of discussion, not taking minus for what?

I recall a discussion with one of the guys up at Kalamazoo that basically went like this. The only thing they can be minused for is not barking at least once every two minutes and for leaving the tree. And if another dog is called at that tree, only one of them has to bark so the other dog don't even have to be barking. The only thing left that can get them minused is leaving the tree. So.....if a dog is under the canopy of the tree, can it be considered to have left that tree?

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It doesn't say canopy but under rule 17 general information it says that a dog should not be minused tree points if he comes back a short distance to meet handler if dog goes back in and trees satisfactory. Judge should be informed of such peculiarities before hunt

Jim, I agree that a dog does not have to bark at all if treed in with another dog because the two minutes does not get it. But the dog is to show the tree. If a dog is under the canopy but comes off the tree a greater distance than what the judge deems prudent and does not return to the tree then it can be minused. Allen or Todd covered that in a thread on here a long time ago. The "canopy" does not save a dog from minus if the judge deems it to far and the judge holds the same standard through out the hunt time. That is a shortened version of the post. On a small tree the canopy may only be 8 feet round. A dog may stand 5 feet off tree and not be under the canopy but still shows the tree. It was basically put as being a judges decision as to the distance a dog can come off the tree to meet a handler. The main part of the "canopy" theory is the dog declared treed must show the tree they were declared treed on. I don't care if they are on the wood, treeing at the base, or sitting off the tree a little if there is no doubt to which tree the dog is showing to have the coon in it.

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"To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." -
-- Theodore Roosevelt



Brian Teague 252-649-3050