UKC Forums - ????? about Allen's poll

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-- ????? about Allen's poll (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928301904)

Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 04:00 PM:

????? about Allen's poll

"Finally, here's the seed to plant in the memory bank.
When it comes to declaring dogs struck, the only time a dog is no longer accountable for his barks is when the dog is handled (on lead). Any other time they are accountable and MUST be declared struck on or before the third bark (after the minute of having been released). This little bit of valuable information should make it a whole lot easier to score any such situations correctly. It gives you a specific point."

I had a question about this statement but he locked the post, maybe Allen will see this and answer it. I would like to handle this in the correct manner as this happens on at least 1/2 the registered casts that I go on.

The question is if the cast has handled the 3 dogs and are scoring the tree and the 4th dog comes in and starts treeing is the the handler of the 4th dog required to strike his dog because his dog has not been handled which you state above is the only exception.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 02-14-2013 04:42 PM:

If the dog barks 3 times and its not ON the lead or within the min or on timeout. Its gotta be struck. Thats how I figure it.

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Posted by Maniac on 02-14-2013 04:47 PM:

whys he need strike when your at the treee scoreing it? tell the handler to handle his dog.

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Posted by JiM on 02-14-2013 04:49 PM:

If the minute is up, the dog has to be struck on or before the 3rd bark. There are no exceptions to that. No other rule over rides it. I'm not sure why Allen even mentioned the part about the rule not apply to a dog on the leash, that is so obvious. It's like saying "except when the dog is in the box, at home asleep or ON THE LEASH". I guess you need to spell out everything.

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Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 04:54 PM:

I only ask the question because I have never seen someone strike a dog that comes into the tree while the cast is scoring the tree and I've never seen a cast question that. Sometimes the rule interpretations we get on here don't match what happens in the real world and this seems to be one of those to me. I have no problem with it, but the general public needs to know before we go out and start minusing dogs for this.

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Posted by JiM on 02-14-2013 05:01 PM:

Well I've done it and it is purty dam embarrassing to have to strike your dog in the middle of shining a tree with the other 3 dogs handled. It's one of those "I need to get a better dog" moments.

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-14-2013 05:02 PM:

Re: ????? about Allen's poll

[QUOTE]Originally posted by K. Singletary
"Finally, here's the seed to plant in the memory bank.
When it comes to declaring dogs struck, the only time a dog is no longer accountable for his barks is when the dog is handled (on lead). Any other time they are accountable and MUST be declared struck on or before the third bark (after the minute of having been released). This little bit of valuable information should make it a whole lot easier to score any such situations correctly. It gives you a specific point."

I had a question about this statement but he locked the post, maybe Allen will see this and answer it. I would like to handle this in the correct manner as this happens on at least 1/2 the registered casts that I go on.

The question is if the cast has handled the 3 dogs and are scoring the tree and the 4th dog comes in and starts treeing is the the handler of the 4th dog required to strike his dog because his dog has not been handled which you state above is the only exception. [/QUOTE

If i have the card I tell the guy to handle his dog before he even gets a chance to be on the tree. Once i tell him to handle his dog it doesnt matter if the dog barks or not.

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Posted by Andy Miller on 02-14-2013 05:07 PM:

Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
"Finally, here's the seed to plant in the memory bank.
When it comes to declaring dogs struck, the only time a dog is no longer accountable for his barks is when the dog is handled (on lead). Any other time they are accountable and MUST be declared struck on or before the third bark (after the minute of having been released). This little bit of valuable information should make it a whole lot easier to score any such situations correctly. It gives you a specific point."

I had a question about this statement but he locked the post, maybe Allen will see this and answer it. I would like to handle this in the correct manner as this happens on at least 1/2 the registered casts that I go on.

The question is if the cast has handled the 3 dogs and are scoring the tree and the 4th dog comes in and starts treeing is the the handler of the 4th dog required to strike his dog because his dog has not been handled which you state above is the only exception.

the ? was =dog was at tree=20yds. away he didn come in ==he was there===

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Posted by Maniac on 02-14-2013 05:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
If the minute is up, the dog has to be struck on or before the 3rd bark. There are no exceptions to that. No other rule over rides it. I'm not sure why Allen even mentioned the part about the rule not apply to a dog on the leash, that is so obvious. It's like saying "except when the dog is in the box, at home asleep or ON THE LEASH". I guess you need to spell out everything.

JIM WHY WOULD A PERSON HALF TO STRIKE A DOG WHEN U R SCOREING A TREE AND THE DOG COMES IN TO THE TREEV YOUR SCOREING??? MAKES NO SENSE TO ME HANDLE HIM. IM NOT STRIKEING MY DOG AT A TREE THATS BEING SCORED. JUDGE SHOULD TELL U TO HANDLE YOUR DOG COMEING IN TO A TREE BEING SCORED

Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-14-2013 05:11 PM:

As far as I concerned 5d trumps the 3rd bark rule if a dog comes into the tree after the cast is there.

Dog receives no minus.

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Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 05:34 PM:

Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by Andy Miller
the ? was =dog was at tree=20yds. away he didn come in ==he was there===

I know what the question was and he answered that question, but his answer created another question that needs to be clarified.

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Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 05:36 PM:

Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
If i have the card I tell the guy to handle his dog before he even gets a chance to be on the tree. Once i tell him to handle his dog it doesnt matter if the dog barks or not.

If you are busy shining the tree, do you always see the dog come in? I know I haven't.

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Posted by Maniac on 02-14-2013 05:39 PM:

Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
[QUOTE]Originally posted by K. Singletary
"Finally, here's the seed to plant in the memory bank.
When it comes to declaring dogs struck, the only time a dog is no longer accountable for his barks is when the dog is handled (on lead). Any other time they are accountable and MUST be declared struck on or before the third bark (after the minute of having been released). This little bit of valuable information should make it a whole lot easier to score any such situations correctly. It gives you a specific point."

I had a question about this statement but he locked the post, maybe Allen will see this and answer it. I would like to handle this in the correct manner as this happens on at least 1/2 the registered casts that I go on.

The question is if the cast has handled the 3 dogs and are scoring the tree and the 4th dog comes in and starts treeing is the the handler of the 4th dog required to strike his dog because his dog has not been handled which you state above is the only exception. [/QUOTE

If i have the card I tell the guy to handle his dog before he even gets a chance to be on the tree. Once i tell him to handle his dog it doesnt matter if the dog barks or not.

u need to read the rules alittle better

Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 05:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
JIM WHY WOULD A PERSON HALF TO STRIKE A DOG WHEN U R SCOREING A TREE AND THE DOG COMES IN TO THE TREEV YOUR SCOREING??? MAKES NO SENSE TO ME HANDLE HIM. IM NOT STRIKEING MY DOG AT A TREE THATS BEING SCORED. JUDGE SHOULD TELL U TO HANDLE YOUR DOG COMEING IN TO A TREE BEING SCORED

This is what I've seen done for the past 20+ years of hunting in the hunts. Is this wrong?

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 02-14-2013 05:46 PM:

Re: ????? about Allen's poll

The question is if the cast has handled the 3 dogs and are scoring the tree and the 4th dog comes in and starts treeing is the the handler of the 4th dog required to strike his dog because his dog has not been handled which you state above is the only exception. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes. After the minute is up, a dog must be declared struck on or before the third bark, period. No other rule trumps it.

I'm not striking my dog on or before the third bark, if he comes into a tree we're shining! Result: No problem other than the handler is not doing your score any favors.

Again, the point we're trying to get across is simple. Strike the dog on or before the third bark regardless of the situation other than if it is on lead.

Posted by Tom Jones on 02-14-2013 05:49 PM:

yep

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
As far as I concerned 5d trumps the 3rd bark rule if a dog comes into the tree after the cast is there.

Dog receives no minus.

RULE (5 G); DELETE POINTS WHEN DOG COMES INTO TREE SHUT OUT ON (WHICH WAS THE CASE)..........MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IF HE STRIKES THE DOG OR FARTS HE SHOULD GET NOTHING UNLESS SLICK OR OFF GAME THEN HE' IS FORCED TO NEXT AVAILABLE POSITION. (4 G) DOGS TREING BUT NOT DECLARED TREED, "WHEN JUDGE ARRIVES", WILL BE MINUSED ON TREE POINTS ON OFF GAME OR SLICK TREE. POINTS WILL BE DETERMINED BY NEXT AVAILABLE POSITION,....."DOGS SHUT OUT ON STRIKE (WHICH WAS THE CASE) ON SLICK TREE OR OFF GAME WILL RECIEVE MINUS TREE POINTS ONLY.

little to grey for me

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Posted by Tom Jones on 02-14-2013 05:52 PM:

Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
The question is if the cast has handled the 3 dogs and are scoring the tree and the 4th dog comes in and starts treeing is the the handler of the 4th dog required to strike his dog because his dog has not been handled which you state above is the only exception.

Yes. After the minute is up, a dog must be declared struck on or before the third bark, period. No other rule trumps it.

I'm not striking my dog on or before the third bark, if he comes into a tree we're shining! Result: No problem other than the handler is not doing your score any favors.

Again, the point we're trying to get across is simple. Strike the dog on or before the third bark regardless of the situation other than if it is on lead. [/B][/QUOTE]

you can strike em but according to the rules they would be deleted

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Posted by GA DAWG on 02-14-2013 05:52 PM:

Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC

Again, the point we're trying to get across is simple. Strike the dog on or before the third bark regardless of the situation other than if it is on lead.

Seems simple enough don't it lol. Dang.

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Posted by Tom Jones on 02-14-2013 05:57 PM:

sorry

just read where you cleared up your muddy question, hard for someone to understand what somebody else MEANS lol

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Posted by buck brush on 02-14-2013 06:10 PM:

Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Allen / UKC [/i

Yes. After the minute is up, a dog must be declared struck on or before the third bark, period. No other rule trumps it.

how much plainer can it get, i strick my dogs on the first bark .

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Posted by truly on 02-14-2013 06:15 PM:

A little off subject but I think it pertains:
I am seeing the comment "once a dog is handled". When is a dog officially considered handled? I have been told by someone that has been on the rules committee that a dog is considered handled the moment that the judge says "handle your dog". As in- dogs treeing, judge says "handle your dog" and as cast members move in a dog makes a loop out away from the tree. Some cast members want the dog minuses. Judge says "no, dog was treeing when I instructed for dogs to be handled, so he is considered handled." This apparently came up at a big hunt where dogs were to be handled and as handler reached for dog he slipped off to the side and got a drink of water in a creek. Handler caught dog 20 feet away in creek and cast argument started.

As it regards to Allens question, and Maniacs comment, if a dog is at tree but not struck and judge says "handle your dog" and dog has not been known to have barked three times yet, does handler need to strike dog?

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Posted by JiM on 02-14-2013 06:17 PM:

Re: Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Seems simple enough don't it lol. Dang.

It's never simple enough. After he said nothing trumps 4-j, four guys come back and say they aren't striking their dog at a closed tree. At some point you just give up.

Posted by K. Singletary on 02-14-2013 06:25 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
It's never simple enough. After he said nothing trumps 4-j, four guys come back and say they aren't striking their dog at a closed tree. At some point you just give up.

Jim, I agree it is very simple. My only point is that this is not being done currently, at least not where I hunt. If I go to a hunt this weekend and minus a dog for this I doubt anyone will agree with me even the MOH. There is a real issue between what UKC wants done and what is actually being done and this is just one example.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 02-14-2013 06:43 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: ????? about Allen's poll

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
It's never simple enough. After he said nothing trumps 4-j, four guys come back and say they aren't striking their dog at a closed tree. At some point you just give up.

Jim when was the last time you saw a handler strike his dog under a closed tree after the dogs had been handled?
I bet never.
If my dog comes in during shine time im more likely to yell scratch him than strikehim Lol.

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Posted by JiM on 02-14-2013 07:17 PM:

What are we discussing here John, my hunting experiences or a rule?

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