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-- titles to titles why we do it. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=481320)

Posted by dual walkers on 02-06-2012 08:04 PM:

titles to titles why we do it.

just wondering everyones opion on why we breed our good coon treeing females to a male dog with a big title.. why we dont stop and look at what they will be like our young dogs that we produce,, hunting abaulity,, good nose and tracking ,, treeing .. and if they are comfermation correct to help breed standards of our breeds.. are we letting our breeds fall apart just cause we want a tree dog or a show dog we got to better our breeds all the way around.. just wondering if others are seeing this also..

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CANYON CREEK KENNEL owner Steve Randolph, [home of top hunting and show treeing walker coon-hounds] THE PROUD HOME OF 2007 A.C.H.A. WORLD SHOW CHAMPION /UKC & AKC OPPOSITE SEX WORLD SHOW CHAMPION. 2006 BEST IN SHOW WINNER AT UKC, PREMIER. 2010 NATIONAL GRAND CHAMPION WALKER. 2010 OVERALL BROOD FEMALE WINNER.. AT AUTUMN OAKS.. [CCH.GRCH.HILLTOP LITTLE TAMMY]

Posted by goodtimekennel on 02-06-2012 08:39 PM:

I think the walker breed has come a long way in the past 15 yrs, back in the day walker pups rarely hunted or treed till they were almost a yr old, now i see walker pups treeing wild coon at 6 mo old, which is what i like if they are gonna eat my dog food i want to see some desire not walkin around the truck and checking every tire like they used to, I like what i see in the walkers now even own 1 now and will be breeding to a young well bred nt ch dog, he showed me at 8 mo old he could tree wild coon in style loud track driving with lots of heart ,

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Posted by old ben on 02-06-2012 09:08 PM:

if i was making the mixture i would add 1/2 quart of tree and 2 quarts of track 2 quarts of brains and 1/2 quart of drive but what do i know aint no breeder or trainer lol

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Country Boy Can Survive

Anderson County Coon Club
Lance White
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Posted by Bluwalker on 02-06-2012 09:08 PM:

It is easier to sell pups out of a good female and a well known stud dog male than it is a good female and a no-name male. Nothing wrong with breeding for good conformation also but with everyone I know, a dogs looks take a backseat to its hunting ability.

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Posted by Cynthia on 02-06-2012 09:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by old ben
if i was making the mixture i would add 1/2 quart of tree and 2 quarts of track 2 quarts of brains and 1/2 quart of drive but what do i know aint no breeder or trainer lol

I dont see anything in here about conformation...not looks...but structure. so if your mixture produced flat-footed, cow hocked, jack up dogs that were smart enough to tree a coon on his/her own, then that dog would be ok to breed to in the future???

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2013 World Champion Bluetick, 2013 AO Overall Bred By winner GRCH 'PR' Sexy and I know It (breeder)
2015 AO Overall Dual Champion NTCH GRCH 'PR' Sexy and I know It (breeder/owner/handler)
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AKC CSG, UKC CCH GRCH 'PR' Southern Flame Bad News Bandit (Bandit)
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Posted by old ben on 02-06-2012 09:20 PM:

sure

__________________
Country Boy Can Survive

Anderson County Coon Club
Lance White
865-919-7234

Posted by Cynthia on 02-06-2012 09:24 PM:

then how does that better the breed?

Posted by old ben on 02-06-2012 09:27 PM:

well for what its worth jmo hunting ability would be my goal not looks ..i guess thats why iam no breeder just buy em and complain lol

__________________
Country Boy Can Survive

Anderson County Coon Club
Lance White
865-919-7234

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-06-2012 09:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
I dont see anything in here about conformation...not looks...but structure. so if your mixture produced flat-footed, cow hocked, jack up dogs that were smart enough to tree a coon on his/her own, then that dog would be ok to breed to in the future???

Probably not in there because its got very little to do with a dogs ability to tree a coon. Ask some of the guys that hunt in the swamps and marsh how well those cute little cat feet work for them. I like a pretty hound as much as the next guy but as soon as a dogs looks start to become a consideration when deciding what to breed they are going backwards. Trying to make an educated decision on a stud is tough enough without throwing purdy in the mix.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by MikeR on 02-06-2012 10:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
I dont see anything in here about conformation...not looks...but structure. so if your mixture produced flat-footed, cow hocked, jack up dogs that were smart enough to tree a coon on his/her own, then that dog would be ok to breed to in the future???

Coonhounds are were bred to be hunting dogs not show dogs.

I like a dog with good conformation as well as anyone and have show AND competition hunted my dogs for 32 years. Many know and understand that a dog with good conformation/structure will take hard hunting longer and recover faster than a dog with bad conformation BUT
first and foremost a coonhounds hunting ability takes precedance over conformation.

Many show people claim their dogs are "Dual Purpose" but they only have show titles. Hunting a show dog one or two nights a month (if that) doesn't qualify as "Dual purpose" to me or many others.

To me and many others a "Dual Purpose" dog has a Dual Ch or Dual Grand title. Show titles, field titles and water titles alone or in conjunction with each other don't mean dual purpose or prove squat to me.

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Posted by goodtimekennel on 02-06-2012 10:11 PM:

THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME WHEN YOUR STANDING UNDER THE TREE LOOKING UP

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Posted by starplott on 02-06-2012 10:55 PM:

Geeze, what it seems to boil down to is a LOT of hound breeders have such low standards when it comes to breeding. (hense all the bitching of high cull rates).

Just because a dog hunts doesn't mean it is breeding quality. Judith because it has titles doesn't mean it is of breeding quality. It is hard enough finding a dog that is the total package. A total package not only hunts, but is show quality (about 80% of each breed standard covers moving parts and parts that impact the ability to do the job it was bred for). Granted it may not make national show wins, but still show quality.

Either breeding just for hunt or just for show will get breeders into trouble down the road.

Even at that, not all dogs reproduce themselves (especially stud dogs who really don't usually bring as much to the woodpile as the bitch). I've seen some awesome hunting dogs that produced almost all culls no matter who they were news to. I've seen culls throw some rather nice pups. Some of the top titled/named studs don't reproduce as well as their lessor known littermates, even though they are better working dogs or have more titles.

People breed for 2 reasons. Either breed to preserve the function/standard of the breed or breed what sells.

If you look at a good several breeds...breeding what sells and breeding for either show or work is detrimental to a breed.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 02-06-2012 11:03 PM:

I would like to hear how strickly breeding for ability will get a breeder in trouble.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by micooner on 02-06-2012 11:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I would like to hear how strickly breeding for ability will get a breeder in trouble.

I will take a stab at this. If you don't take into account any congential defects then the breed suffers, some things like bad movement, thyroid issues and other physical traits too name a few

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 02-06-2012 11:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I would like to hear how strickly breeding for ability will get a breeder in trouble.

i have always heard bred coon dog to coon dog but all dogs have
faults so you dont know what end the breeder is working on for
a balance hound.the breed standards have been set up by hunters
not show people for speed to the tree.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 02-06-2012 11:35 PM:

Wouldnt any of those show up in a dogs ability? My point is as long as dogs are bred strictly on their ability if they had a genetic problem that kept them from doing their jobs they wouldnt be bred anyway so the problem would be eliminated from the Gene pool automaticly by strictly breeding for ability.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by john Duemmer on 02-06-2012 11:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
i have always heard bred coon dog to coon dog but all dogs have
faults so you dont know what end the breeder is working on for
a balance hound.the breed standards have been set up by hunters
not show people for speed to the tree.

Speed to the tree has lots more to do with nose and brains than any physical characteristic.

The fastest track dog i ever saw run a coon was a three legged dog with one eye.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by toe cutter on 02-06-2012 11:41 PM:

ability and looks go hand in hand. if a guy don't like the looks of a dog he will not give it the same chance as one he likes the looks of.
if i got a dog with a pig face or underbite that is a top coondog, i would not breed it. mainly because i would not own it.
if i can breed or own one that i like the looks of and is a top coondog in ability too, then thats where i am looking to breed and my dogs to come from. why settle for less. if you can breed a top dog then you ought to know how to breed a good looking top dog.
i want looks and abilty, but i know nite hunts or bench shows aint where i have to have either one come out of to be a looker and the real deal coondog i want.
i could give a rats azzz about the breed and better-ing it. all i care about is if the dog is what I want myself to hunt and look at. thats the only reason i breed. FOR ME...how hard or how loud a dog can tree slick aint what i want in my dogs. from what i see i don't want any of that breed improvment everybody seems to be breeding the titles to each other for..
too many people wanting that recognition or big money litter of impact - fame and fortune. breeding to the big named all grand peds for the next top dog flavor of the month stud dog so they can brag on what its out of insted of what it is.

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Posted by micooner on 02-06-2012 11:51 PM:

somethings like thyroid problems are passed on from generation to generation and might not show up for a few years, most breeders don't or won't keep data concerning this, or any other known health issue. As for the title to title question some people figure breed to the title and the ability will come with it.

Posted by goodtimekennel on 02-06-2012 11:53 PM:

Starplott

Look at the plott breed lots of show and no go
Seems like most are dual purpose but its harder to find a good plott coondog anymore, I started with the plott breed but am on my way out

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Posted by john Duemmer on 02-06-2012 11:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by toe cutter
ability and looks go hand in hand. if a guy don't like the looks of a dog he will not give it the same chance as one he likes the looks of.
if i got a dog with a pig face or underbite that is a top coondog, i would not breed it. mainly because i would not own it.
if i can breed or own one that i like the looks of and is a top coondog in ability too, then thats where i am looking to breed and my dogs to come from. why settle for less. if you can breed a top dog then you ought to know how to breed a good looking top dog.
i want looks and abilty, but i know nite hunts or bench shows aint where i have to have either one come out of to be a looker and the real deal coondog i want.
i could give a rats azzz about the breed and better-ing it. all i care about is if the dog is what I want myself to hunt and look at. thats the only reason i breed. FOR ME...how hard or how loud a dog can tree slick aint what i want in my dogs. from what i see i don't want any of that breed improvment everybody seems to be breeding the titles to each other for..
too many people wanting that recognition or big money litter of impact - fame and fortune. breeding to the big named all grand peds for the next top dog flavor of the month stud dog so they can brag on what its out of insted of what it is.

Id sure like to know where ya run across all these TOP COONDOGS that you could afford to cull one if it had an underbite. maybe we just got different ideas about what TOP means cause i figure if a guy hunts 30 years hes lucky to say hes had one or two TOP COONDOGS.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Posted by plentyofpossum on 02-07-2012 12:09 AM:

Very simple.....money.

Posted by Barry Franklin on 02-07-2012 12:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by plentyofpossum
Very simple.....money.

You hit the nail on the head Possum ! It still amazes me, how much money people will pay to get people to talk about them !!

Posted by Mike Hill on 02-07-2012 12:45 AM:

intresting subject

Like the guy says do u cull a good coondog for a underbite.Or say a altfooted walker compared to a cat footed walker.I gurantee you in a show the cat footed dog will pretty well win every time.Titles I look at as competion fun go out there from 16 to eighty call your dog try to win hopefully win.I did something I never did made my Ace dog a grandnite the paper wont even buy me a cup of coffie.Hes a average dog I breed one female to him have to pups they seem to be coming along pretty good.Like one freind of mine told me a freind of his told him I probaly made a millon dollars of dogs but i spent 2 millon to do it

Posted by Cynthia on 02-07-2012 12:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Wouldnt any of those show up in a dogs ability? My point is as long as dogs are bred strictly on their ability if they had a genetic problem that kept them from doing their jobs they wouldnt be bred anyway so the problem would be eliminated from the Gene pool automaticly by strictly breeding for ability.

unfortunately the "problem" would NOT be eliminated as demonstrated by old ben earlier in agreeing that the flat footed cowhocked jacked up dog was quality breeding material because it would tree.

My dogs do not have hunt titles because I choose not to participate in the hunts. they have the 'breeding' and the bloodlines to do it. I have gotten reports back that pups from my breeding are early starters, tree huggers, and making the owners happy with what they are seeing. and to boot, they look good. I have a litter on the way and I have high hopes for both the show ring and the woods for those that are interested.

so, guess this whole thread was a crap shoot because if your focus is breeding title to title or only looking at one aspect of the dog and not the WHOLE dog, then it doesnt matter if God himself comes down and shows you the error of your ways, they wont change. so, to each his/her own and hope that each breed will remain 7 different ones instead of 14 after years of "not breeding to that no titled thing" etc.

good luck.

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